I'm pretty sure the Fire are not flying completely blind on the "rights" part of this deal. The big "if" is all on Rogers' shoulders. If he doesn't give a rat's ass about representing the national team, I'm sure he can find more than a few pub clubs in England that will pay his wages in pints. If representing country is important to him, then he'd be a fool to slam the door on the most viable route that will get him back to where he thinks he belongs. Perhaps the Fire are giving Rogers more credit than he deserves, but it appears they are betting even Rogers isn't that stupid. To answer your question, you don't have to have sight to see that someone handing the rights to a "national team caliber" player who will likely return to the league might be of some value, especially when what you are asked for in return is of little or no consequence. I'm not turning this into a "you vs. us" argument; however, I will note that you have responded to almost every post on this thread that doesn't agree with your opinion. As far as the "rights" part of this deal goes, IMHO, the Fire have done their homework.
Responding to posts where there is a disagreement is pretty much the definition of a "discussion" board. How can you say that the Fire has done its homework when the head coach said, after the fact, that they are still trying to get in touch with the player but have been unsuccessful through his former club? Oh well. I think its a shitty trade that has the potential to at least be not shitty if the rights to Rogers turn into anything of value. I'll leave it at that.
All it means is that they probably didn't have the intention to bring him back but figure there's a decent chance he could be back in the league within the next year... With Rogers being a west coast guy and Arena's propensity for that type of player, the Fire acquiring his rights is gravy on top of the deal... In short you're blowing this far out of proportion.
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2013/02/05/new-chicago-mf-duka-i-was-too-complacent-columbus I find it hard to believe that someone who did that much homework before bringing in Duka did absolutely none before deciding that the Rogers rights were worth something.
Yes it is, but it's kind of funny that you accuse others of turning this into a "you vs. us" debate after you've taken issue with the majority of posts in this thread. You obviously feel it was of the utmost importance for the Fire to contact Rogers prior to acquiring his rights. I don't. If he comes back, the Fire will benefit. If he doesn't, what have the Fire lost?
I have taken issue with substance. In other words a disagreement over what the club should or should not do. I like those conversations. They are much more fun than a kool aid drinking echo chamber. His post then turned personal on me. I have thick skin, but I'm more than willing to be a dick when its called for. I feel that it is of the utmost importance for the Fire to understand the value of what they are getting and then decide if it is worth giving something up. Why is this controversial? I get that you and others are "fine" with the Fire not doing it. But even if you are "fine" with that, wouldn't it be better if they DID know what Rogers intentions were? This year? Next? The year after? Wouldn't you agree that knowledge that Rogers is coming back this year would be more valuable then a suggestion from the player that he is coming back in five? If you are happy with Oduro for Duka then I suppose it doesn't matter. I'm not. Dominic Oduro.
The Fire lost a player that had lots of wheels but publicly said he didn't want to be here if he wasn't starting. They got a player in a position of need plus the rights to a player that has played exactly four games in two years at Leeds United. Homework? The guy hasn't caught on there in two years...usually when players with a few U.S. caps don't do the business in Europe, they come home. He's also a left-sided player but the homework here is knowing he's from California, and probably has a desire to go back to the west coast... Who else is there? Sigi in Seattle, who brought Rogers back from Europe the first time to go to Columbus (Rogers and his son had been friends in high school). Its not rocket science here... I don't think the Fire have much intention of bringing him into the fold (you know because they got a left winger in Duka in the trade) but acquiring a player's rights who very well could be returning is a nice wrinkle for the team to have, you know when they try to go and build more depth at forward maybe. Right now, the acquisition of Rogers rights is just gravy on top of the deal. The Fire got someone that can play on the left which is what they needed and got rid of a player that wasn't going to be happy playing second fiddle all year. You make a lot of good points on this board but you also tend to have a freak out now and then... This is one of those times.
Perhaps you should have made the accusation in response to "his" post rather than mine. National team caliber players that are loaned and released by lower league clubs in Europe typically don't have the luxury of 5 years to make a decision, especially if they want to stay National team caliber players. Even Rogers knows his most viable route for picking up more caps is putting the ball in the back of the net and there is only one league where he has got a track record of doing it. Rogers' agent has got to feel like this guy if he's adament about staying in Europe: If all we got was Rogers' rights for a player who can't play more than a half without getting gassed and already has one foot out the door, I'd be more willing to agree with your assessment that losing Oduro was of some consequence.
Just to put a pretty bow on this, I went back to confirm that it was "his" post I was responding to with the nastier comment. I responded to you with the me v. others comment after you said this: Two pages of posts and you finally conclude with a belabored point about it's not about the rights, it's a bad straight up trade, but if it were about the rights, the Fire fcuked up by not picking up the phone. Not a big deal, but my sincerest apologies that you were forced to read my belabored points.
Interesting discussion and a LOT of emotion over an issue that given the setup in the MLS as opposed to the rest of the world is actually a truly "moot" point. Having read the contracts the players sign, for the most part the terms are unilaterally in favor of the league and the players are little more than pawns of the league. While it has been a while since I have looked at the contracts, my guess is that there is no requirement or even a suggestion that a player has to be contacted when his "rights" are assigned to another team. The players, as most of us know, are employees of the league--not the local team. As such, the re-assignment of a player's rights to another department (team) are essentially solely up to management and the players have virtually no say or input into such re-assignment. While that system seems to "suck" inasmuch as the player has signed away his rights over his name, his activities, and his loyalties, that's the way it is. Secondly, it was not too many years ago that the European leagues were taking a very close look at how the MLS was set up because some of the top teams were facing deep financial problems. This system seemingly has worked reasonably well in spite of what we as outsiders perceive as "unfair." The MLS continues to expand its market throughout not only the US but also in Canada. The level of play has improved dramatically in the past several years and overall attendance has continued to rise for the most part. Finally, Robbie Rodgers was probably wayyy over rated when he went to Europe and may or may not be a playing card the Fire will get much mileage out of BUT if they do, that will be great! If not, they have traded a one-dimensional player to add depth to a position that was badly covered by Flacco last year. If Duka even plays with a reasonable degree of intensity, he will be miles ahead of Flacco. Should the Fire get some benefit from Robbie, that will be great. If not, it hasn't hurt anyone at all. I, for one, think Frank and the front office have done a very masterful job of making some significant moves to strengthen the team over the contending team they were last year. Let it go--from the club's perspective, this was a no-brainer that might create an opportunity that we wouldn't have had otherwise. If not, it has not cost the Fire one red cent.
This isn't about the system. You aren't the first to point this out, but it is irrelevant to the conversation. I get that MLS can maintain that certain teams hold rights to players when they leave. Chiladd started this thread, not me. It was a very simple premise. That it is nuts for a team to trade for something when they don't know what the value of that something is. I'm not sure why this is controversial. I would agree with this. This is where I strongly disagree. As I said earlier, they may have traded a one dimensional player for a no dimensional player. They type that have crowded our bench and provided nothing for the last four or five years. I have only seen Duka play a couple of times and saw nothing of his supposed promise. I view him much the same way that I view Bone. And like Bone, he has played wide, but that is not where he should play. By reading Crew blogs, it seems this guys biggest asset is his ability to play in tight spaces. That is not the definition of a wide midfielder. I understand that many were down on Dom because of the things he can't do. People call him "one dimensional" all the time. Now, you KNOW I'm not a big stats guy. But this one dimensional player was, by a really wide margin, our best goal scorer over the last two years with 18. Last year in a more limited role, he had 6 goals and three assists. 2 less goals than Chris Rolfe and the same number of assists. 2 more goals then Sherjill MacDonald and one less assist. I'm amazed that people don't appreciate the value here. In Duka, there is virtually nothing but promise and really no more promise than Bone who was similarly situated as one of the best central midfielders in his draft. From a coach's perspective, Dom does provide that "one dimension" in spades. Because he has the ability to finish, other coaches are forced to adjust directly to him whether he is a starter or comes on in the second half. There is a ton of tactical value in having him available, and virtually no tactical value in Duka. So, as a straight up trade, I think it is a foolish one. I for two. Okay, masterful might be a bit strong. But under the cost constraints that their owner is placing on them, I think the front office has done a very solid job in adding Lindpere and Lawrentowicz. I also think they did a good job last year, particularly in adding Arne and drafting Berry. Hell, I think they did a great job in acquiring Dom for Calen Carr (who actually is more valuable then most on here give him credit for, but still a great trade for us). Having said that, we don't have to walk in lock step and I don't mind stating the case that this was a bad trade straight up. I backed off of that when I heard that the Rogers rights were being thrown in, but that was with the expectation that we actually knew what his intentions were. Everyone here speculates on that and I could too but that is pointless. We don't know if he wants to come back or not and we don't know how limited his choice of clubs would be if he did. Again, how is it controversial to WANT our club to have that information to assess the value of what you are getting. Most seem content that this is "gravy" or "icing." I'm of the opinion that it could be both which would frankly taste really bad together. The problem is that the underlying food kind of sucks, but I guess most people disagree and are more than happy to ship off Dom for Duka. I will let it go because apparently, I can't get anyone to agree that: a) it would be better to have information than not have information about the value of something you are getting in a trade (the original point of chiladd's thread); and b) that Dom > Duka. It may not have cost the Fire "one red cent" which is likely the most important point for our owner, but it did cost us our leading scorer over the last two years in exchange for a guy who scores once every 1,0000 + minutes in his MLS career. Even IF he can add something else, we have to replace the goal scoring production we are losing.
If all we were comparing is the output (or potential output) of the two players, the trade would suck. But if we dumped a cancer, it was good surgery.
Maybe MLS can perform a good surgical procedure and find a new owner to place an expansion team here. STH# 000001
I'm curious about this. I heard that he said he wanted to start. Was there more to it then that? Compared to Lance Briggs a few years ago and other pro athletes, his statements have seemed pretty innocuous. I never got the sense he was a cancer in any way. It's also curious that we would trade him for someone who does have that reputation.
Well, uncertainty is the spice of life. If everybody knew a player's value, then maybe Rogers' rights wouldn't have been traded here. But then, if everyone knew a player's value, maybe Rogers wouldn't have been given another chance to suck in Europe. However, I think we can agree that there is at least a 50/50 that he would return to MLS, given his sucktitude in England. Yes, a one-dimensional player that has been passed around MLS like a $10 whore. And a one-dimensional player whose output has been on the decline once MLS coaches figured out how to neutralize his one dimension. Depends on what you think Dom will do. Most seem to think that his goal total will continue to trend downward towards his career norms. You seem to think that he'll break the league record for goals scored in a season. I think he'll end up somewhere in between, and then Columbus will have to pay six figures or more to re-sign a 5 to 8 goal scorer. Agreed with all of this, except that Calen Carr sucks a horse's ass. He's just "a guy." He's replacement-level bench fodder. I salute Klopas for having turned a turd into a double-digit goal scorer. We will see about the subsequent trade... Who knows? Does Klopas have to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about all of his conversations to the media and the public? Maybe he did, and maybe he didn't ascertain Rogers' intentions. But I think it adds some value to have gotten the rights to a former Best XI player. And yet, you're speculating that Dom will return to his 2011 form, while comparing the goalscoring records of a MF to a forward, right? If Dom wouldn't be happy coming off the bench in his contract year, and if his production will continue to decline, I think it is reasonable to have made this trade. Thanks. I think "a" is either improbable to attain completely, and "b" may or may not be true. Yeah, and comparing a MF to a Forward makes perfect sense, right? Why not compare the goals against of a 'keeper to a forward, too? [Man, Sean Johnson sucks, because his GAA is higher than Dom's!]
Now I can definitely let the thread go. Disagreement from Khan . . . or is it Kann . . . is pretty firm confirmation that you are right. Thanks Mather Boy.
Maybe "cancer" is too strong a word, but he certainly wanted out. All other things being equal I'd rather have Dom than Duka, but I'm not sure all other factors are equal. Hopefully we have an eye on a striker so we felt like Dom was just extra depth.
Losing Oduro is a loss, for sure. He was the best forward the Fire have had in a while (and that is both not saying much and it speaks volume about the Fire in recent years), since he was the first Fire player to score in double digits in close to a decade. He was also one of the players I liked to watch, as frustrating as he could be. His speed and (usually) his hustle made him an exciting player and a player I always looked forward to seeing. However, what we saw in 2011 is what we were going to get. I don't thank Oduro will ever be any better than he was in 2011. That being said, I am not ready piss all over this trade yet. Dilly Duka, despite having a name sounds like a Dairy Queen treat, was a highly regarded prospect coming out of the youth/college ranks. Perhaps there is something there. I don't really know, I don't think I have ever seen him play (and if I have had, it was not memorable). At 23, he is just coming into his own. Having the rights to Rogers could be a big deal. He is/was a proven USMNT player. Sure he has fallen off of the radar a bit. The guy is still only 25. Whether Klopas/Hauptmann/someone from Cowlumbus/someone from MLS reached out to him or whether his post that started this thread was a pissy commentary on MLS' business model, we don't really know. And, frankly, I don't care. He could be a valuable player for the Fire and a possibly even more valuable bargaining chip for a future transaction. Oduro was pretty good and, with current Fire team, it may be have been good enough, but the Fire think otherwise. If he wants to start is isn't going to, perhaps moving on was right decision. I look forward to seeing Duka and/or Rogers can do for the Fire (on the field or as trade bait). I am optimistic the Fire will make up for the loss of Oduro. Oh, not having to hear Dan Kelly say "freaky fast" anymore makes the deal all the better.
Watching the Columbus-TFC friendly, and the commentators are talking about how the Crew should be playing more long balls over the top to take advantage of Oduro's speed. I know a win is a win, but I want to see us playing attractive soccer, not just launching the ball down field every time we win it back. And Oduro doesn't fit in a ground passing game. All he is is speed. And he can't take defenders on with the ball, so long balls is the only way to bring him in the game as a goal threat. Nyarko can beat players for pace with the ball, which is what makes him a very good winger. I don't think Oduro could do the same
I really think Dom is a great guy and he went above and beyond the call of duty to connect with fans and while he is exciting and frustrating to watch I am glad Columbus will be playing kick and run while the Fire will attempt to playing in a style a notch or 3 above on the technical scale. I wish Dom the best of luck against every OTHER team in the league except the Fire but I am for one am glad we are aiming higher and am confident another Forward/Striker will be found.
Now I see why Rodgers made the comment about the Fire not reaching out to him....had they, he may have told them it wasn't worth the effort to gain his rights. http://www.soccerbyives.net/2013/02/rogers-comes-retires.html
Obviously, the Fire didn't do its homework. I have known that guy to be gay for years along with every other Crew player I have seen. You got served Fire front office!