Oh... and I agree spending too much time on fitness is not all that productive as the players real fitness is going to depend more on their regular training regimens than a couple weeks with the national team a few times a year. That is my opinion anyway. But I think assuming this is absolutely correct and beyond argument is a bit too far as Klinsmann does have a staff of highly trained fitness people who know a lot more than me who seem to believe otherwise.
Yes we are basically treading water. Whoever the coach was we would likely be in a similar spot right now. What is funny is how his system is morphing back to the system Bradley was using post WC. Even his dedicated #6 (Beckerman or Edu) have given way to more of the pulley system previously used (Bradley/Jones) and a Torres and or Edu. For all this talk of attacking outside backs like Johnson and Cherundolo. This is no different than all the wide backs Bradley employed, with the exception of Boca. Yes, there is an attempt to play more possession, and its coming at the expense of open opportunities in the final third. For all this bluster of how things are changing and new concepts differingt under JK, they look more and more like the prior regime on the field
There are 4 questions I would ask before I would pass the standard BS summary judgement on JK's poor mental state. 1) Were they fitness/stress sessions, tactical/technical sessions or one of each? 2) What exactly was JK trying to achieve? 3) Did he achieve his results? 4) Was achieving the result worth the potential risks to WCQ?
Fitness level for a tournament is higher than a club season. I get that. 3 games in 7-9 days plus potentially more is very taxing. It is fine to run prior to a WC or Confed Cup, but there was no need to do that for this past get together. Players coming off long seasons are in need of rest more than anything else, not two a days. There is no need to run 30 yo starters into the ground for 3 friendlies ahead of two WC qualifiers. Those 3 games meant nothing. They should have been used to get ready for the two main games, not a '5 game tournament'
A coach would have to be a miracle worker for us to be doing much better or incompetent for it to be much worse. I am fine with Klinsmann because I think if we can stop giving up so many easy early goals and improve our holding possession situationally, even at the expense of a wide open game, we will be more diffcult to beat for the top teams and we will be more likely to be able to hold onto a lead and close games out. If everything goes as planned and we end up where we did in 2010, maybe we can hold on against Ghana and eek out a narrow win instead of losing a late goal. I don't think we have the horses to run and gun the higher up the food chain we go, but these close games could perhaps turn on how well our players do things like manage the game and protect possession with a lead. But whatever happens it will be a lot closer to business as usual than some sea change overnight as we will qualify and we will have some good and bad results along the way. With our player pool, this would be the case whoever we brought in. The best we hope for is that when we get to the big show, we are prepared and perhaps those games at the margins go our way instead of drifting out of our hands. That will be the final grade and the only one that matters.
I just wonder if all the fitness stuff is more along the lines of.... I'm going to demonstrate to these guys that they damn well better be fit because when they arrive in the US camp, this will be the expectation and they will have to be able to keep up. And also to give players access to resources and people who can help them with advice and examples of how to maintain that fitness because while clubs certainly do help players remain fit, players also have a significant amount of individual responsibility to remain fit on their own.
Early goal vs Mexico, goal allowed vs. Costa Rica in friendly, goal allowed late vs. Ecuador, should have lost late vs. Canada, early goal vs. Brazil,bad/easy goals given up during the 1st two qualifiers. We really haven't improved. Fact is we are using the same defenders that used to give up the early goals.
The previous trainer, Barruieau was no light weight. And most common sense nutrition can be found in Mens Health, cycling, triathlon and running magazines. Their first obligation is to stay fit for their club obligations.
Didn't at all mean the last guy wasn't good. Just that a bunch of guys who get their best info from Men's Health may want to take a step back before they decide the guys Klinsmann is relying on for this are idiots. I am sure there is some sort of strategy going on that we are not completely privy to. And we'll have to agree to disagree about being more defensively sound. Last I looked we were scoring less but also giving up less under Klinsmann on average. Unlike many around here, I don't have a problem with that. I tend to prefer a more staid game, especially with the personnel we have. Can you point to bad goals under any coach? Of course. Hell, you could pretty much dissect almost any goal and consider it a bad goal. Far, far more goals are scored when a team makes a mistake than through moments of magic. But just because mistakes are made does not change the overall trend of lower numbers of goals against.
There is absolutely no evidence of this. In JK's 15 matches the only 1 in which he attempted a pulley and 4-4-2 was Canada which the staff agrees was a total disaster and overall the worst match of JK's tenure. OK Rico went off the reservation during parts of the Panama match but that was just Rico. In the other 4 matches of the 5 match tournament we played with a dedicated #6. In the 2 WQC and Scotland Edu sat as a pure dedicated #6. Exactly where are you seeing this morphing? I suspect BB would have a heart attack if you suggested that JK was playing any system like the one BB deployed!
I know I'm just saying that in 5-15 years we will probably know if those 3 guys did a good job or not fixing our youth system.
Even then, it won't be their publication, it will be the results of the transformation of the clubs to Development Academies which will tell the story. Those are pre Reyna.
Last time I checked, our player pool consists of professional soccer players who switch teams and systems on a fairly regular basis. It shouldn't take a year, or 2 years, or three years for Jurgen to be able to implement his new system. The players we have are either capable of playing the way he wants, or they aren't - at which point JK needs to alter his tactics to fit the player pool. I'm a firm believer that our current player pool is NOT capable of effectively playing the style of play that JK advertised when he first took over. We simply don't have the personnel. I'm also a firm believer that we can create a player pool capable of playing that way, but changes need to be made at the youth level. And in that regard, I agree that this will take time. The funniest part of all of this is that people like you who preach patience, are the most impatient of the bunch. I say this because you have this belief that JK has the ability to recreate and reinvent finished products into something completely new. That's impossible. Patience comes in realizing that it will take a generation before we produce enough players capable of effectively playing a possession oriented game. What I expect of Klinsmann is for him to begin the process of reinventing the youth (because they aren't finished products yet) so we can see that evolution in 5-8 years. I expect him adjust his tactics and style of play to suit the player pool and to put our players in the best possible position to succeed. Right now, he's trying to force something that isn't there. This is an extremely backwards way to build anything. Trickle down doesn't work. They tried that in the 80's with the economy and it has led to the largest income gap between the haves and have nots in US history. If you are building a house, you start with the foundation, not the second story. If you want to look at it from a soccer perspective, look at Germany and Mexico. Both nations took a look at themselves in the mirror and weren't happy with what they saw. Both took a very proactive approach to reinventing themselves, and both focused entirely on revamping their youth development. THEY MADE NO IMMEDIATE CHANGES TO THE SENIOR NATIONAL TEAM!!!!!!!! Over time, the efforts that they made at the youth level began to bare fruit, and we now see two sides that have been revamped and rejuivinated. It is beyond maddening how the Klinsmann apologists on here are so willing to give Klinsmann credit for what happened in Germany over the first decade of this century, yet suggest the complete OPPOSITE strategy that Germany employed when talking about what Klinsmann should do for the US.
You're wrong. You're ability to read a box score and Castrol rating index numbers and then transfer that data into a spreadsheet is beyond reproach. And Bravo. You're ability to watch a match and actually see how a team is lining up and how they are actually playing as the game moves from minute 1 to minute 90 are severely lacking.
True. But they also get to practice with said teammates and coach every day, and play every weekend. This is where we disagree. In the past I said our team could benefit from changing the style of play. Many back then, and still today, think we still aren't or ever will be able to play a more 'possession' based approach. WHY? Because they believed are personnel was not skilled enough to play it. Bottomline. This IMO still remains to be seen. We've seen some good, and some bad trying to play under this style. Our way we handled ourselves vs. Italy and Brasil though gives me confidence this can be a good thing. Our guys are learning to have more cofidence in their possession and holding capabilities when their backs have been against the wall like in those 2 games. Against Brasil especially, the score didn't do our play justice. At one point, being in amazing shape isn't enough. When you face a team that is just as in shape as you, it all comes down to fundamentals, and ability to hold, pass, and create, and bleed off pressure and make your opponent chase. Can't say I agree ,but you're opinion. Thanks. I agree, it will take time. But I think we have guys to play this style, but haven't seen it click yet. I don't follow this? What do you think I see as our future? Somewhat true... but still... all you are saying is you don't believe in the personnel we have now, that they are capable of playing that way. I do, as do other posters who believe. Fair belief. Many are wiht you, Zoidberg, Deut', Otero', Adiagatwo, etc. To each their own. We won't truly know how well we do until we end up at the WC. Until then we'll have some ups and downs. Which I am ready for. I can't argue with this. We'll see how things turn out in 2014. I just believe we have the personnel to play this style, and hopefully coaches (like the ones I've been under growing up, took their tips form looking at the pros at the time) will learn to mimic more of what is seen at the highest level in the US and bring that home.
Very compelling statement. I note no actual analysis or support for your statement. I guess when you are finished speculating about me and what I am lacking you will use your superior match analysis skill to tell us specifically how JK's scheme is morphing into BB's.
I don't remember us getting out of the back in BB watch as well as we do with Johnson, there alone is an improvement in our game but we did lose a bit of that in the right side due to DOLO starting to slow down. Our passing game started where JK wanted us to play, yeah it was against a weak CR friendly but nevertheless, we liked the way the KOOL-AID tasted, then it came the realization that this new style took even more away from our front line chances to score. JK then went back to BB's plan to get the results and build his new strategy at a slower pace. This is where some folks cried foul! that this new system is too much like BB's system, sorta like buying the same thing at a much higher price. You have to remember for all that JK wants to do, he has to show results otherwise he won't get the chance to make the changes he wants to do. I hope Chandler gets back onboard DOLO is still good but not as good as he used to be, also I hope we get some help in the outside mid. that alone will noticebly improve our team.
Its been done ad nauseum. Some people refuse to see what is plain as day and right in front of their faces. Lets not forget that you were the one trying to convince people that Klinsmann's first 6 games was the best attacking soccer the US has played in a decade.
That's because Johnson is a better player than what Bob had available to him. That doesn't change the fact that philosophically, both coaches wanted the same thing from their outside backs. Get your width from your fullbacks, keep your "outside mids" more pinched in. That was Bob's strategy for a long time. Klinsmann has more or less abandoned the notion of using his "outside mids" to provide width. That why guys in the mold of Rogers and Shea have seen minutes diminish or pain disappear over the course of the last year. The tactics are returning to BB era tactics. At this point, the only real difference in the way we lineup is that we have 3 holding midfielders on the pitch and 1 striker vs. 2 holding midfielders and 2 strikers. Everything else is pretty much the same. I don't think people like myself, Duets, Adiaga, Otergod, CleanSheet, etc are crying fowl. Simply pointing out that for all the hemming and hawing about how tactically deficient our past coaches are, it seems like the "messiah" has had an epiphany and realized that the old tactics were the ones that best suited our player pool, and we just needed a few tweaks here and there to get to the proverbial next level. We needed to address the defense. We needed to be better at controlling the game late, holding onto leads, etc. That doesn't take wholesale changes to accomplish.
Might want to go back and review the last 9 years. Dolo (remember him vs. England? Surely Milner and Cappello do), Hejduk, Bornstein, Pearce, Spector (remember him getting forward in the CC?), Simek, Lichaj all spent time getting forward. I'm not talking about they're overall play, but they were all overlapping fullbacks. This especially came true in the CC once we went to the Dempsey/Donovan left/right pinching in. Part of Bob's problem post-WC was moving Boca outside. We essentially lost any overlapping attack from the left, leaving us with one less attacking player/not utilizing attacking space.
Disagree here. It's no secret Klinsi' loves everything about the style of play Barcelona plays with. IMO, he sees our strength being our depth and vast amount of CM's. He wants to flood our midfield like Spain, with players who are comfortable playing in the middle, while havinf guys like Cherundolo and Johnson be the outside attacks like a Dani Alves. He's not copying BB, he's trying to pull a Barcelona/Spain lite. Personally, many times it ends up looking like we have two strikers in the past games wiht Gomez/boyd being the CF and Dempsey being the SS. Nobody is saying BB or anyone before them were tactically deficient. They just played a more direct, and many times counter attacking style vs. bigger teams. Why? Because trying to play possession and hold the ball against these guys were too risky in their eyes. I agree. I think the whole approach though, with more calm, keeping it on the ground, and holding better possession AGAINST all competition, not just minnows is what it will take to bring that. The better our guys in the back get with their feet, and comfort playing the ball out the back comfortably instead of long passes down the middle or to a CF with the last line of defense, the better off our whole defense will be. I am confident guys like Gonzalez and Cameron, and maybe in time if we can get better control and not leave Ream so exposed, he too canbe an asset to us back there with his calm on the ball.
Your point is well taken but that was lifetime ago (in soccer), The only player that still resembles what he used to be is DOLO. True the others tried to move forward but to be honest Bornstein and Pearce where not that successful and Spector only got his 15 minutes of fame at the CC and hasn't been able to duplicate that since. Bob's bread and butter has always been the counter, his build up through passing was weak at best. Now I see a very good LB, a way more efficient MB, and a front line that is developing, our problem is the resto of our players haven't improved or are getting older.
Bob was a HUGE Barca admirer, but his players couldn't trap a ball cleanly or a large percentage of passes missed exactly where they were supposed to go, causing the play to adjust. Bob often spoke about the Barca style of play (I recall an ESPN article on the very topic).
Not at all. He brought great wins under his belt, and truthfully, I was sad to see him go after 2010, because his team finally started to play a more 'possession' based game. The road up to the Final of the GC', he had his team playing similar to what Klinsi was looking for! He started to experiment with more holding style of play wiht Adu, and was building up with a more possession based play.... Either way, I admire what he brought to the table, but he got us as far as we could go. I'd believe it! I mean, who DOESNT love Barcelona and admire how they play? Any team and any soccer player can take something from it, and learn from it. BB though, like some posters, didn't have faith in our guys ability to play a more possession based game, and had them play the best way he thought possible, and efficient. Klinsmann has a different idea on what is our best way to play against the best in the world. This is the difference. He may have loved Barcelona, was a fan, but did he try to do what Klinsi' is doing? Bringing a little bit of their 'pressing' and more possession based approach to our team.