I think Beasley keeps 7 and Zusi probably 19. I'd add Guzan as 12 as well. Otherwise, I agree, these are the known numbers.
It's not that simple. An authority doesn't guarantee truth, but their testimony is much more important and valuable than non-authorities. Actually many definitions of that fallacy say that the "informal" fallacy is when the authority isn't actually an authority.
It's always a fallacy when such appeal goes contrary to evidence. Evidence so far is that Green is, well, too green.
LOL... I would posit that you sir, do not have as much info as the authority that was used as supporting evidence. He is following the Klinsi way to integration, come to camp make a twenty - thirty min sub appearance, get another call up a run out and see if there was improvement. Mexico as a stand alone event was almost good enough to get a ticket, he only has to beat out Brek Shea for his spot. Too green or not, we got nothing after Fabian. At any rate I am out // carry on,
You're glancing over two factors here. Forget fans for a min and think about the squad and coaches. First factor is the coaching staff did watch him in training both here and in Germany last month and saw that he did well enough in training that they felt comfortable, with all the ridiculous hype surrounding this kid, in a USA/Mex match, to bring him on around the 60th min. That tells me he's showed at least pretty well in training and not out of his depth. Unless you're suggesting he did look terrible in training and JK and his staff decided to set him to get embarrassed and for failure in front of 60K. Second factor is how his teammates reacted to him. I didn't see any hesitation to move the ball to him out wide. Clint regularly will look off guys he doesn't have confidence in yet played a number of balls to Julian and looked to make runs off him. The guys appeared in general to have enough confidence to involve him in the attack, even in the final 3rd. That again tells me that not only coaches, but the players themselves saw enough in training that they were confident in playing with him. So no, I completely disagree those 30 mins are all we have right now. As someone who played sports at a fairly high level, you can tell a lot from what I just brought up. There's elements surrounding this situation you appear to be choosing to ignore.
Here's the post-game comments from Deuce and Bradley. On top of how much confidence about his ability the team's actions on the pitch demonstrated, do these sound like guys who will be upset if the (positive play) killer Bs are left at home and "some kid who didn't sweat through qualifiers" takes a spot? Spoiler: that's rhetorical. They want the best players possible out there with them. The total aggregate number of damns anyone in the final 23 gives about someone being left at home due to the fact that they are a less capable player is somewhere between 0 and 0.0. "He's a good player. In a tough game he was able to get some good touches, cause some problems, and made some good decisions," said captain Clint Dempsey. "I think it's exciting, a young kid like that with so much talent, so much ability," midfielder Michael Bradley said. "For him, it was just about getting out there for the first time, enjoying himself, getting the first one done with and now we can really get him going." And finally, a word from the man who ultimately makes the decision: "You saw in some moments what this kid is actually capable to do, how he goes in the box, draws two guys and should have gotten the penalty," Klinsmann said about a play in the final minutes. "Obviously he was nervous to play his first cap in front of 60,000 against Mexico, here and there you slip, lose your balance like it happened once there. "But the team welcomed him with open arms. When you are among other players you check each other out, and within 10 minutes (you know) whether he's a good player or not. Julian is a very good player." No matter what your take on Klinsy is, it is indisputable that he himself has seen many very good players and has been one himself. So I'm going to go ahead and side with our former world class striker manager, our current best player and our most productive ever YA, and continue to feel very positive about Green's ability to contribute something to the US squad. It likely won't be a Golden Boot in Brazil, but if he's there, it's because those who matter believe that his potential contribution right now, no matter how slight some critics will make it out to be, is still greater than the alternatives. All quotes from this article: http://www.indystar.com/story/sport...outh-in-us-debut-vs-mexico-world-cup/7245149/
I'm not saying he won't be included in the 23. For all I know, he may be the next Ronaldo, and score 10 goals in Brazil. But, so far, sticking to actual evidence, he had a very sub-par debut, and he should not be included based on it. If you pencil in players based on hype, or on what you think the coach thinks, then go ahead.
I still think he's an even bet to make the roster. I could live with it if Jurgen just takes DMB and Edgar Castillo as the only true left-sided players. But Brad Davis and that stone-footed idiot Brek Shea? Take the kid.
This is a fully defensible position that I understand. I don't agree with Castillo, but you're spot on in your opinion that Brad Davis and Brek Shea shouldn't really get a sniff (albeit for different reasons). I hope I'm not moving the goalposts here, but if it were between Castillo & Green for a prelim 30 spot (DMB already on the hypothetical squad in question), I'd choose Green largely to encourage his development. We're not talking about someone whom the coaches will be teaching technique and general tactics. Given his training, I'd guess that his soccer IQ somewhere between top 5 in the pool at best and sufficient in the USMNT pool context at worst. Based on my observations, I would posit that talented youngsters are exactly the players who can progress the quickest when put into a situation that demands more of them. For supremely gifted young players, the steep curve of top level play is often exactly the challenge needed to take them from prospect to player. I believe, and I think Bayern agrees based upon their support, that the pre-WC camp and friendlies might be just the situation needed to push Green to the next level. While not perfect, I would point to the quick progress of a kid like Raheem Sterling as an analogous example. To the Shea point, I think there is some overlap among the group favoring Shea and those denigrating Green's potential for immediate contribution and late inclusion (I believe we can safely assume him to be in the preliminary 30.). My perception of Shea's status is that he must sleep in the bed he has spent the last couple of years making, and he seems quite content in it. Even if one believes that Shea has special skills that might be useful, his reported behavior doesn't come close to what should be expected from someone competing for a World Cup spot. Yes, it's true that I don't watch Shea train. But I don't believe it's possible to find yourself central to so many negative reports if you're truly committed. My hot sports take is that the type of commitment I want on my WC squad isn't demonstrated by coming on in a match and having folks say you're willing to "bleed for the shirt" because you look like you're trying hard by running hard when you get the ball. I appreciate that for what it is - about 1% of the 100% effort required for success. The commitment I want from players is demonstrated over the months and years prior to that moment by performing as a professional every day, on and off the pitch, to continually prepare yourself for the opportunity to wear the badge. In my application of that metric, Brek Shea seems to be sorely lacking. Now Brad Davis, as we all know, [pick any BS post on him...tries hard...not very good...unique in the pool in his proficiency at separating lights and darks on laundry day or some other "specialty skill" of equal utility against the best teams in the world].
It's this sort of reaction that gets me out of bed every morning and drives me to continue working hard to be the best poster I can be. Thank you. Jokes aside, thanks for the compliment. See you at dinner tonight, Dad.
I rather the 23rd roster spot be the more talented young player than the washed up has been/never were which are the only other alternatives that we have.
Well if we're talking about logical fallacies, I'm sure judging a soccer player on 30 minutes of time qualifies as one of them... Hopefully the coaches have enough tape and training with Green to assess him properly. It'd be a great surprise to see someone come in and outplay the starters at this point.
I hadn't watched the game, but after seeing that video of his touches, I think the assessments were quite harsh. All the lost possessions were a combination of a few unlucky touches/slips and a lot of difficult situations where he was either going to get trapped or find a miraculous way through. He looked good enough to me, but not if those bad touches and crosses are something that's consistent. I really doubt they are though if he's one of the hottest Bayern prospects.
The problem is that it's hard to assess how a player will play in actual competitive matches until that player is in actual competitive matches. Training camp is an approximation for intl friendlies and friendlies are an approximation for actual competitive intl matches; neither are a perfect way to evaluate how a player will perform in a match on a given day, but they allow coaches to make an educated guess. There are several factors that may prevent a player from realizing his potential in real games and only some of those are related to the skill of the player.
I came to the same conclusions. I was overly harsh on Green following his debut, but upon second viewing, he was not that bad. He's still in contention for a 2014 spot, although realistically he is a 2018 prospect.
Mexico pretty much double-team Julian of all players. Seems like Julian is use to one touch instead of the direct passing gig, seemed to be the reason why Bradley and Dempsey weren't clicking with him.
That sort of vagueness may play out in the 'real world,' but not here. I demand a timetable - a precise one - right now!