Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by SirWellingtonSilva, Dec 23, 2011.
Where does he rank in league of midfield maestros?
I'm "bumping" this thread so that I can get back to it later...
[Haynes is/was definitely up there in that category; but from a more global football perspective he might be a tad hard to rank because he might not be some sporting culture's "cup of tea". Before his auto accident in '63 (IIRC) Haynes was actually a fairly solid, unafraid of physical contact player in a league that wasn't known for its "wilting lillies": he wasn't exactly a "serial dribbler". But he often didn't need to be because most opponents couldn't rattle him before he could get a pass or shot away.
Before '63, Haynes was also a competent "forward-&-back" two-way player relative to his position: he was often one of (if not the best/top) midfield ball-winner at Fulham...]
[This is a Norman Giller England match report where he talks about one of the reasons why Haynes didn't win more caps earlier in his career:]
"Northern Ireland, Windsor Park, 2.10.54. England won 2-0
Wood Foulkes Byrne R Wheeler Wright* Barlow
Matthews Revie1 Lofthouse Haynes1 Pilkington
Highlights: Don Revie and Johnny Haynes got their first taste of international football together and scored a goal each. There were five other new caps in a team that had been completely re-modelled following the quarter-final exit from the World Cup finals: Ray Wood, Bill Foulkes, Johnny Wheeler, Ray Barlow and Brian Pilkington, who played in place of the injured Tom Finney. Foulkes, Wheeler, Barlow and Pilkington were not capped again after this victory. The Irish worked desperately hard in a bid for their first victory over England since 1927, but the wind was knocked out of them by two goals inside two minutes late in the second half. Haynes exchanged a one-two pass with Revie before shooting wide of Portsmouth goalkeeper Norman Uprichard. Within a minute it was 2-0, Revie running on to a pass from Haynes and steering the ball low into the net. Haynes was just nineteen, and he already looked an assured and confident player who could hit accurate forty yard passes with either foot. But the powers-that-be decided he was too young to trust with the role of midfield general, and he was dropped along with Don Revie and six other players."
[In other words, a "roundtable" of cigar puffing fish merchants and club officials denied the England team one of its best and most effective creative players EVER because they actually knew f*ck all about the game. You can tell that I just loved both idea and the reality of the ISC... ]
This is the British Pathe newsreel of that match:
There's some footage of the younger, a tad more athletic version of Haynes in action (wearing the No.10 shirt for England). Nat Lofthouse also executes a nifty back-heeled pass to Sir Stanley Matthews that goes against Lofthouse's more modern image of being mostly a big bulldozer of a centre-forward w/little appreciable attacking skill...]
How do you view him vs Duncan Edward?
[They were complimentary players and formed a de facto "CM" duo in the England side more than once: Haynes actually has a fairly well known quote praising Edwards as an England team-mate. I'll try and find where I've posted it elsewhere and link it to here...]
[Lofthouse v. Edwards? ]
[This quote (Haynes is commenting on Edwards here) isn't easy to find; so I copy and pasted where a mate of my brother's posted it on YouTube:]
Reply · in reply to thetoon99 (Show the comment)
thetoon99 3 months ago
Johnny Haynes, Fulham and England Captain:
His greatest asset was his strength. Not so much physical strength but a kind of dynamic strength which kept him endlessly on the move, covering, shadowing, backing up attacks, plunging through to finish off an attack with searing shots, as he did so often for his country. His defensive play was quite outstanding, his heading superb. We built up an acute understanding of each other's play, and a joy it was to play with this man,.
Reply · in reply to TheLegendfamily
[I'll try and find where it's posted on a more official site...]
The quote is a bit better listed here on a site for Duncan's book "Tackle Soccer This Way":
There's some good info about Duncan and the book on the rest of the site...
Are you kidding? John Haynes vs Edward of course
[Of course I'm having a go at you: that's what the "winky" symbol means, mate...
Did you get what I was saying about Edwards v. Haynes and them being complimentary players to each other?]
This is Edwards' England debut; England 7 Scotland 2 @ Wembley in April of '55 posted by that same mate of my brother's on YouTube:
The DVD presenter makes an error: Wolves cult legend Dennis Wilshaw wasn't the "spearhead" centre-forward for England in that match. It was Nat Lofthouse wearing the No.9 shirt while Wilshaw was playing-off of him as the "scoring"-type of I-F.
For those of you that asked me what a "G-S I-F" used to do on a pitch; just watch Wilshaw shred Scotland in this match. Also notice Wilshaw's lethality as an aerial "finisher"; which has become a more forgotten part of his attacking assets/make-up.
Also notice how NOT tired, knackered, or over-the-hill that "Sir Stan" was at the age of FORTY: don't forget that Scottish defences/players weren't exactly strangers to dealing w/"flying wingers". To those of you that asked me what Matthews looked like on a pitch at or near the peak of his career: the same feints, attacking moves, etc.; just executed w/more initial quickness and top-end speed w/the ball at his feet.
Lofthouse shows some good all-'round attacking work as the No.9 C-F: holding up the ball and then "feeding" it off to a team-mate, working as an aerial "target" and the like. Once again, Lofthouse had A LOT more to offer than just a hulking brute that shoulder-barged the stuffing out of opposition 'keepers IMHO...
Unfortunately there isn't much surviving footage of Edwards in this match; but he did not look out-of-place amongst seasoned internationals at the age of EIGHTEEN...
The Norman Giller match reports list this at No.68 & I can re-post the link to them if needed. Yes, I also saw this match live from the press box/stands @ Wembley and it is officially acceptable to hate me now...
I posted a link to a BBC Radio interview (w/Jimmy Armfield) w/Haynes in post No.5 of this thread:
An excellent profile of Haynes fr. theinsideleft.com:
Excellent insight on Haynes fr. Jimmy Greaves (a bloke that had a pretty good perspective on Haynes as a player ):
A Fulham fan's reaction to Haynes being ranked below Darren Anderton and Des Walker on an A-T England players list circa '09:
In a different thread, I believe that "Jim" & "Puck" were asking about Haynes' 7th place showing in the '58 EpotY:
At the time Haynes usually wore the No.10 for England as their stellar "pass master". Because of the widely-held (and mostly inaccurate IMHO) retrospective view that England supposedly disappointed at Sweden '58; it's often forgotten that Haynes put in a fine display at those WC Finals. In Oct. of '58 Haynes also had a fantastic individual performance against the Soviet Union in a pre-ENC "friendly" (also during the Cold War) where he scored a hat-trick and picked and pulled the Soviet defence apart.
The England v. USSR "friendly" is covered in the Norman Giller match reports and I can post a link to it again if needed...
Excellent footage of Haynes in action for England at or near the peak of his playing career (before his auto accident):
Aside from his cracker of a goal; you don't get to see much of how Lofthouse bashed the Soviet defence to bits in this match. Also intriguing footage of what a Bryan Douglas and Sir Tom Finney wide partnership could've done in the '58 WC if Finney hadn't been injured in the opening group match (also against the USSR)...
Haynes wearing the No.10 shirt for England v. Italy @ Wembley in a not-so-friendly in May of '59:
You also get to see the younger version of Sir Bobby Charlton as a "card-carrying" No.9 centre-forward for England in action. I can also re-post links to the Norman Giller match report here if anyone needs the info...
good info, so that I can see how you make him a partner complementary to Edwards
An excellent profile of Haynes from football-england.com:
Essentially the reply thread to the Haynes profile w/testimony from fans that saw him in action and extra info on his career:
Haynes lined-up for Fulham as a so-called "deep-lying centre-forward" for Fulham w/footage of one of his "long bomb on a sixpence" trademark free-kicks and Haynes setting up a goal for Steve Earle:
Of course the so-called "D-L C-F" position was esssentially the job that he did for Fulham week-in and week-out w/the No.9 on the back of his shirt...
From the Daily Mirror sport section on 30 July of '56 by Tony Horstead whether Haynes should eventually take over as England captain from Billy Wright:
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/incoming/article5916.ece/BINARY/England's next captain
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