Jesus, you did make some valid points with your first post on this thread, but can you do me a favor and use paragraphs please?
I was limiting the sample size to the standout performers in the Korean U-23 set up. That's simply not true. By age 20, they should be technically developed. But they have a long way to go tactically. Raw pace and skills will not guarantee them a long and successful career. That's why learning how to play tactically through match minutes is critical in this stage of development. Anyway here's the typical career trajectory of a footballer (notwithstanding GKs): Age: 17-22 Transitioning from prospect to professional. Age: 22-26 Refining their craft to become senior players. Age: 27-30 Prime Age: 31-retirement Veteran, post-prime Clearly, you are an outsider to this debate. Do you know what wages rookies in the K-League are on? I think not. Point of fact, it doesn't break anywhere near six figures in euros. By going to Japan, they will get paid. Their league is structured differently. This is clearly an arbitrage play where structural differences between the leagues means J-League clubs can offer U-23 Korean prospects more money in the early stages of their careers than in Korea. For many, moving to Japan early on in their careers is all about the money. If Japan had an infinitely better league, I'd could see the sporting reasons behind challenging themselves. However, in the opinion of many, the K-League is quantitatively and qualititively superior by the smallest of margins. As an aside, our league does a pretty damn good job developing talent who later gain moves overseas. Just look at Park Ju Young, Ki Sung Yong and Lee Chung Yong. Again, why do our kids have to go to Japan as a stepping stone? That's nonsense. I'm not going to resort to an extended counterfactual argument here. But your assertment that all the Korean prospects who failed in Japan would have failed in Europe is (1) stupid and (2) false. We've had plenty of prospects that went to Europe on exchange programs and impressed/excelled. The kids that went to Japan were at that time in their development equal to and in some cases superior to those that succeeded in Europe. Do you think Korean kids don't want to go to Europe? Many have gone overseas in the KFA youth exchange programs and have excelled. Point in fact, look towards the following three U-20 players... Son Heung Min and Nam Tae Hee are success stories. Others have done well but had to return b/c of strict visa requirements as in the case of Ji Dong Won. We're not Europeans. We don't have EU passports that allow our kids to go sign contracts overseas as they please. That's why as a foreigner to this debate, you should have kept neutral to this argument. Stagnation is a form of regression. Going abroad before a player is ready will also lead to regression. Why do you advocate automatically going abroad at the first opportunity? Again we're enjoying high level success from kids who decided to grow in the K-League and then move at ages 20-23 after they were ready. True. But these prospects that we are discussing have been hand picked and groomed by the KFA through all stages of the youth levels. These are not your run of the mill YouTube sensations. These are the kids who have performed at every level and international tournaments. At 18-21, they are physically and technically developed. What they need is solid guidance to grow tactically. Again, Korean coaches and managers simply do a better job cultivating these prospects. And it's not because they are coddling these prospects as you tend to think. Koreans tend to engage in a lot of tough love. In every age group, we have a handful of "can't miss" prospects. The ones that go to Japan always fall behind the ones that stay in Korea. Are you claiming that these are all correlative effects? Yes, we have some that don't make it. Or become solid but unspectacular professionals. But the preponderance of these talents make it to the senior KNT squad. So chew on that for a second. Really? How many true "late developers" can you cite that are stars? The only one that remotely comes to mind for me is Ribery. And even he was already at Marseille by age 22 or 23. The game and the rules may be universal. But everything else from the national organisations to the coaching to the development of players is not. Support structure - managers and veterans who are kindred spirits and will naturally mentor them. Families and friends and teammates with shared background to support them. A common language to communicate thoughts, ideas, frustrations... You know, the normal littany of support you'd get at home. Moreover, when they make mistakes they won't be hooked mid match or dropped for the next match. And please don't tell me that this doesn't happen in Europe. Just citing England as an example, I watched the likes of Gerrard (way back) or Wayne Rooney (more recently) given plenty of space and time to make mistakes time and time again off and on the pitch as they were developing. That's the kind of support structure that I am referring to. [And that's not even touching the headcase that is Andy Carroll] Really? That's not quite what I said. B/c as I recall, that's what I said the environment is like for Korean prospects going to the J-League. In Korea, the cream of the crop are given more time to swim. Yes, football is a results based business, but it should be more than about "sink or swim" when it comes to coaxing the best out of your best prospects. Otherwise, unless your league is flush w/ cash [and/or an overabudance of natural talent], the end product will be dire and probably route 1 sh!t. Ok. Good to know. It was a logical inference from your preferance that prospects test themselves overseas. If so I stand corrected on your stance. However, you did state that going to Japan or overseas in general as a first step towards maturity or something to that effect. Who said anything about these kids in question getting only 5 minutes of match play in the K-League. If this were the case, and they can get the full 90 mins week in and out in J2, they should be playing in J2. However, this is not the sample set that we are discussing. Look at Kim BK's peer group. Koo JC is at Wolfsburg. Lee CY is at Bolton. Ki SY is at Celtic. LCY and KSY are primed for their next move. And the other three are established senior KNT members. Who said anything about Real Madrid? Let's not go to extremes. But Kim BK would have been nicely set up for a move to a good club in Europe by now had he gone to the K-League and not wasted time playing in J2. You're right in that counterfactual analysis is not the most accurate assessment tool. However, just look at the skill set that KBK has and the fact that he's left footed. And then look at the comps represented by LCY, KSY and KJC. That's a comparative assessment more so than a counterfactual one. How did you jump to this conclusion? You sound like one of those American politicians in the Republican party. The argument that individual exceptionalism will prevail above all else is not always true. There are some who will succeed whatever the costs. But then there are some who are immensely talented but need to have that talent cultivated. As long as the end product is equal, I don't care how they developed. I just don't want to see any of the super talented footballers blessed with natural abilities to fall through the cracks. The best national sides are the ones who ensure that as few as possible (of the super talented prospects) fall through the cracks. No, the problems in Holland and especially with the Ereidivisie are present and real. As more of their best talented prospects languish in England, the more it will affect the national side within the next decade. Just look at Ryan Babel as Exhibt A. CSL does suck. And we'll probably write that. Nice way to take the argument out of context. The posters said the J-League sucks at developing our prospects. Many have acknowledged that the K-League and J-League are more or less at equal levels in terms of quality. Anyway, the best money is in the middle east. And their leagues SUCK. I said it. There, are you happy? In no way do I think you are a racist. And I doubt any of the other posters here do either. I think some were making fun of you. B/c you were quick to defend a point w/o understanding (1) the structual factors and motivations behind the influx of Korean U-23 prospects in the J-League and (2) the general complexities and nuances of the relationship between Korea and Japan.
Lol! I still have my pins, coins and collectibles from Seoul '88. I hope they become a collector's item one day. Lol... You guys help me get through crappy work days like today. That's more than I can ask for. Btw, I think there's quite a bit for our administrators in the K-League to learn from their J-League counterparts. And, I'd love to see attendance figures rise to the point where we can support a two tiered league with a relegation system one day...
OK, what year selection? Lee Keunho and Kim Bokyoung are probably standouts there if we're talking about how Korean talents are wasted in J League. I've written already how they're wasting their lives playing in ACL instead of conquering the Europe by this time. What are the names of other 'great preospects'? Critical at this moment is not tactics. They should be technicaly advenced to play against mature footballers by the age of, say 17 years old. And Korean players are prepered in this factor. About how they should behave tactically - that's about how smart they are. Not how much time they will be practicing. At this stage of development it's important how much consistent playing time they will get against grown up players, not tactics which can change from one game to another (playing weaker sides which could be easily disposed of their strong sides to strong ones which couldn't be taken lightly for example). You want to say that Korean players can't think or what? They need years to learn few things how they should move around the pitch? It's just BS. First paragraph: do You really think that money are growing on the trees in Japan? It's hard to pay star-contract for a player who is a prospect. Real money are going to come, as well as in Korea. That way o thinking that players are earning millions of dollars in J League is somewhat exagerrated. They pay players according to what they're earning from sponsors. Every club after Verdy case must be ballanced and that's the rule that they stick to (German model). Really big money are waiting in Europe, not Japan. About six Euro numbers - this can mean from 999,999 to 100,000 Euros. About the structural differencies I've written above. Wealth clubs can pay more moneys, just like anywhere in the world. The players are signing proffessional contracts and are expected to live up to those expectations. Those who want play in Europe someday aren't getting as much moneys. Their (one year) contracts are usually negotiated if a player sees a possible move to Europe. That's how those are depreciated in most of the cases. If they're moving to Japan then what's the reason behind those movements? Bad managers who are messing around their heads to get some money from contract they'll sign? Think about it. The players You're mentioning aren't in the class You've reffered before. That was a way of standard K League player, not brightest prospects of Korean football, tracked down like Kagawa, even in J2. Not to mention that Ki Sungyueng isn't part of the problem - he developed far outside Korea, that's where he started to stand out from the others. Or maybe You think that twelve years old boy can decide about his 'career'? (1) why (2) why? Son Heungmin, Nam and Ji Dongwon - this is still melody of the future - we'll see how the'll develop in few years from now. Now it's too early to say that they're some examples. As I wrote in earlier posts - those who stand out from the others at the age of, say 16, doesn't mean that they'll be successful professional level. For example - one of the few players who signed proffesional contarcts in Japan at this very young age, Akihiro Ienaga, amazed Plymouth coaches and was given a contract there. Yet he went Spain at the age 24. Why? Every player is another story. Some kids were superior - then why the weren't signed by the clubs in Europe by the time? Son Huengmin was. Such standout players are offered a move to another country, not waiting for a proposition from Japan. So what's the age that they're ready? For some 20, for some 25? Then why are we talking here how Japanese league is killing them? It's not the matter of league - it's a matter of choices. Some are good and some are bad. I didn't say that they should try the first opportunity - they must see an objective in those moves. Other than that You're implying that they're retarded or what? What do You mean by stating that 'they need is solid guidance to grow tactically'? Patting on their back from older players ad saying 'It's only K League' after they screwed once or twice? I don't think that it works this way. Not for every player of course. Some needs to be yelled at and some needs more deeply conversation. They can get it in Korea as well as in Japan or any other country they chose to play. So this argument is missed one. Some of them likes to be treated like eggs in incubator, some doesn't. Those who don't want to be treated like that and feel that they can succeed doesn't care about it. Or maybe this still something that greedy managers as I mentioned above? From current South Korean NT rooster for the last game (listing only for defenders who didn't make a swift transition from youth levels to senior NT): Cho Hyojin, Hwang Jaewon, Kwak Taehwi (he was still selected when playing in J League - who could think ), Lee Jungsoo, Lee Sangduk. Those are the ones because we're talking about Soth Korea only. As far as I remember Rooney was a golden child. Gerrard as well. Rooney is now famous from having sex with prostitutes and Gerrard from alcohol libations with his friends. That's the 'support' You're talking about? Rooney wasn't playing in Everton because he couldn't score for ten games in a row - he was there because he scored one goal after another in a club which was hoping to sell him for crapload of money. That was the only reason. Another sink or swim situation. Both of them were capable of taking this burden. If You're comparing EPL to J League, then what should You think abot those who couldn't 'swim' in Japan? They're crap? I don't like to think about them like that. And I'll say it again - it's all about maturity. They can't meet their old friends anymore, they have new place to live and new environment to get used to. In Japan at least they know what's going to happen to them when they land there. About Europe - I don't think they know so much about that. Those who can't possibly make a transition from Korea to Japan will have even bigger problems when they'll find themselves 10000 kilometers from home. The list of South Korean players in Japan is reaaaaly long. So what's the sample set? I'd like to see a list of those 'prospects' which were screwed because they went to Japan. Probably young keeper Kim whom I mentioned above, defender Kim, Park, midfielders Kim and Cho made a step backwards and somehow they were selected for NT? Here's something I still don't understand. From the long list of South Korean players playing (or played) in J League all of them should be included in NT squad at some point of the time? All of the listed above players made a swift move from youth national teams to senior squad. So what's the point of this discussion? There should be 10 more of young players selected to NT from J League? Because You wrote that players at the age of 23 still need to develop - which or me is BS. They can gradually improve, but to a limited level. If someone is good, he's good, if someone isn't he'll probably won't good even in late 30. We're talking here about prospects which are being 'killed' in Japan. Aren't we? But they'll soon get enough money to buy and pay nice amount of RMB for every 'young prospect' from Korea. I was reffering to money - I think that young Korean players still can get more money playing for welthiest CSL clubs AT THIS VERY MOMENT probably. Why they're not doing this already? Why they still chose Japan? Money is all they think about? Or playing time that they can be guaranteed in K League? About level of play we all agree - it's about the same in case of both of those leagues. So money isn't problem - then what is? And once again - 20 years old players enetering professional football aren't the ones who are being developed. They get money that they deserve from their work. Not from what they got when they were 17 years old NT youth levels representatives.
Just because I'm bored to death on my conference call, I'll respond to your post. And OJ - I promise this will be my last long missive. Lee Keun Ho? He's clearly a limited player. He's definitely not the focus of this discussion. He's currently at the right level of play for his abilities. And he was groomed in the K-League and the Korean university system. Anyway, he's nowhere near the starting XI for the KNT. I'm happy he's getting a chance to make some money in Japan. Kim Bo Kyung belongs in the aforementioned list. Kim Dong Sub, Kim Min Woo, Kim Kwon Young are a few that immediately jump to mind. Clearly, you and I disagree on this point. Let's agree to disagree. Riddle me this... What's the point of obtaining consistent playing time? Answer: Gain match experience. And what does match experience equate to? Answer: Improve and master tactical discipline. Please don't say it's to become stronger or faster or something equally ridiculous. Wow, I've been left speechless by your powers of "deduction". A limited player will know how to play a 4-4-2 or a similarly basic system. The best players not only know how to play multiple tactics and formations, but to play different roles within those systems. Mastering tactical discipline takes a few years with consistent match minutes. You can claim otherwise, but it's true. Pure pace and/or physicality will only get you so far. And for Korean footballers, to play in the KNT as currently constructed, they need match minutes towards developing in this respect. Obviously not. Magically money only sprouts out of the ground in the middle east, parts of Russia, etc... C'mon, we all know that. I'm sorry. This shows that you still don't understand what's going on here. K-League has a rookie contract salary scale. Oftentimes, the wages these top prospects can garner in Japan is more than 3x what they can get in the K-League. Since when did I speak of silly Euros in the EPL, La Liga, etc? And did I ever mention Japanese players who took the risk of a 1 year contract so they can move to Europe on a Bosman? No. A red-herring argument, this. Money. Seriously, for the majority of them, it's a very simple answer. Please accept this and move on. And please don't bring your fantasy arguments about the CSL into play here. The J-League and K-League are at comparable levels. The CSL is a inferior by several factors. No Korean prospect will go there unless he pulled a Lee Chun Soo in both Korea and Japan (and the middle east and Europe). Trust me, it's not only the likes of Lee Keun Ho, Triple Shit Jo Jae Jin, Kwak Tae Hwi or the like who go to Japan later in their career for money. Prospects go to Japan for money too. Wouldn't you, if someone offered you double or treble or more in wages for your services? Seriously, you're starting to really lose all credibility here. KSY is a product of the Korean youth development system. He competed for the KNT U-23 set up at all levels. And he's a product of FC Seoul's excellent development system. Don't think for a second that he somehow got noticed b/c he played in rugby country down under for 3 years or so during high school. WTF? I hope Europeans/Aussies don't seriously believe in this tripe. I don't know how you made this logical leap. In fact, please elaborate, b/c I have no idea what you're trying to get at here. Hmm, maybe you are alluding to Messi getting scouted to move to Catalunya at age 12? I dunno and I'm confused. Now, you're showing a general lack of knowledge in Korean football. Son HM, Nam TH and Ji DW are already starting to deliver for club and country. They are the here and now; they are not projects that will bear fruit a few years down the line. Quite clearly. However, it is easier and more accurate to judge the potential of prospects at the age of 18, which is the younger end of the spectrum when the Korean prospects that we are discussing, have been moving to Japan in recent years. Again, as a foreigner, it must be very difficult for you to understand. Son HM was very fortunate, b/c he was given an opportunity by the KFA to go to Hamburg on an exchange program. Germany has more lenient work permit laws than England. Nam TH and Ji DW went to England instead. They performed and Reading wanted them to stay. However, given the UK home office's stringent rules regarding work permits, they could not stay. Ji DW came back to Korea. Nam TH moved on to France where he could get a work permit. Often, it's a confluence of factors rather than talent alone as I stated in my last post. And this is not even mentioning the added layer/complications that is mandatory 2 year military service for Korean footballers. There's no predetermined date. I think it should be after they've established their roles in their K-League clubs like KSY, LCY and KJC did. If they're fortunate like Son HM and get to progress at the club of their youth academies overseas, then that'd be great. Otherwise, I like the route that the double dragon and Koo took. You're half right and half wrong. It is a matter of choices. And their choice in moving to the J-League was the wrong move in most cases. Ok, I guess you didn't state that explicitly. But why do you keep jumping to conclusions about my questioning the intelligence of our players? Clearly, you missed the gist of my comments earlier. Please refer back to it. Again, I emphasize the that "tough love" is the preferred method that Koreans use. We don't "incubate" our kids. We scream at them and our preferred method is "the beatings will continue until morale improves". Again, not to repeat myself ad nauseam but there is a difference in opportunities given to players when managers, coaches and veterans have a greater vested interest in the success of a hot prospect. That's my opinion. And your point is? Why did you list all our shit defenders? FYI, they all grew up in the Korean University system; this is happening less often now for top prospects. Not quite. Our players don't usually run into the problems of the Gerrards and the Rooneys of the world. I was referring mainly to their on pitch growing pains. The rash red cards, the misplaced passes, the missed goal scoring chances that were overlooked. Somewhere along the way, you started inferring things again to have asked this question. Before rushing into conclusions, think deeply about why I raised the examples of Wazza and Stevie G. Chirp, chirp... Answer: I brought up the subject of English players in England to emphasize the point that staying domestic allows a player the space and time to experience growing pains. Really? As neither a Korean nor Japanese, I love how you have a unique insight/knowledge regarding this issue. Lol. You seem to think moving from Korea to Japan is like going from Ireland to England or Sweden to Norway... Hmmm.... See, this is the problem of jumping to conclusions based on faulty reasoning. Again, I'll repeat. When they are established as professionals, like LCY, KSY or KJC after a couple of years in the K-League, they can deal with the home sickness issues in Europe. To engage in a bit of counterfactual analysis, I'm not sure if LCY, KSY or KJC would have necessarily made it in Japan had they moved to the J-League as teenagers. Your point is? The list of Polish players in the Bundesliga is extremely long too. You answered your own question. See above for some examples. Others can fill you in on additional names. My brain is locked to remember all of the top prospects who've flamed out in Japan in the past 4 years. We have only a set number of surnames. If you start listing Kim, Park, Cho, I have no clue who you're referring to. Even after they flame out, they can still be selected for the KNT. However, whereas their peers (of equal talent before their J-League adventures) have become starters for the KNT and secured moves to Europe, they are picking up the pieces of their careers back in Korea. Or just starting to adjust in J1 after unnecessarily spending time in J2 (which they would not have if they stayed in Korea). Just because a player plays in the bundesliga, does he get into the Polish or Turkish side? Does a Balkan footballer go straight into a former Yugo side? There are many terrible Korean players plying their trade in the J-League. The ones that went to Japan are not necessarily better than the ones that stayed in Korea. After putting in the time in Korea, top players will earn good money in the K-League as well. I can't believe after thousands of words, you are still struggling for the point of this discussion. Here's the distilled version of the argument for you: 1. Top Korean prospects move to Japan in most cases for money 2. They stagnate/regress compared to their peer group who remained in Korea 3. The KNT suffers as a result 4. Ultimately the prospect suffers as they fail to reach their true ceiling as professionals When did I say this? Granted, we can probably select 10 names from the J-League for the U-23 setup. Seriously??? So in your view, players stop developing before 23? That would mean age 23 is the start of their peak. Wow. LOL... Foot [insert] MOUTH. All things being equal, a player that continues to develop from 23 until their prime will be better than one that stagnates. Please don't tell me that CR7 has only developed incrementally since he turned 23. See above for context. CSL and Chinese football is career suicide b/c they are nowhere near the level of Korea and Japan. Anyway, how the hell can CSL clubs afford large pay packets for our prospects? I don't think so. Anyway, this is another red-herring argument that you pose. China is a non factor. We are discussing the choices for top Korean prospects between two relatively equal leagues. Do I take more money in Japan and assume the greater risks that it entails, or do I take half to a third of the salary and make some sacrifices to play in Korea? That is the question posed to these prospects. Don't inject China yet again into this argument/analysis. Clearly, you don't seem to comprehend the differences in wage structures for these prospects. I'll repeat, the K-League has set parameters for how much they will get paid. So oftentimes, their pay does not reflect what they deserve. Hence the basis for this discussion, which you really should have steered well clear of.
Let's cut the BS here and get to the point. Hodori summed it up pretty nicely -- Top Korean prospects move to Japan in most cases for money They stagnate/regress compared to their peer group who remained in Korea Majster, can you refute these two points?
So after all I have to agree with that. One could add that they can sometimes work (play) there on professional level when there's no room for them in Korean clubs too. Kim Dong Sub is a good example of those who returned not to waste their time, but let's not jump to conclusions so fast. Same thing about Koo Ja Cheol at this moment. If any Korean player who chose to move to Japan will be transferred to European club then we can start considering 'other factors'. The only thing we won't agree is age of players which we consider as grown up ones. And about this long list I meant that one can find on it young players who are building their position in J League as well as those who 'failed' to get much playing time there (because of whatever reason). So I'll stay at this for the moment. Maybe someone will find something more behind this case later. What players are talking about that after all?
Huh? And I don't mean our former manager. Something obviously got lost in translation. No. Don't misrepresent my position. We disagree as to when a player reaches his peak. Revert back to all my previous posts. I've consistently stated that players reach physical and technical maturity by the time they transition out of their teenage years. However, you seem insist against conventional wisdom that players reach their peak by age 23 and have fully mastered tactics (or are close to doing so) by then. You remind me of this classmate I had way back in lawschool who spent some time after undergrad in the middle east. He thought he knew a little something about nothing regarding Shar'ia law. Dude couldn't even speak passable Arabic. He had this thing for chicks from that region as well. Anyway, we had several lectures regarding Shar'ia law during my 1L year. And he went about defending it w/o knowing what he was talking about. Reasoned argument from my profs wouldn't shut him up. Reasoned and well informed counterarguments from my classmates from the middle east failed to put him in his place either. Suffice to say, all the girls in my section detested him afterwards. I digress... Anyway, bit of advice: Don't be that guy...
I'm not gonna mess with hodori. I'm not gonna mess with hodori. I'm not gonna mess with hodori. I'm not gonna mess with hodori. Case closed, J-league sucks, melonbar was right since the beginning without all this blah blah.
...It's not about whether the K.League or the J.League is better. The competitive advantage of the J.League is its scale as there are more teams and more opportunity to play. Japan has a bigger football market and feeding this market with Korean players only grows the Japanese market. This same logic applies to Korean idol stars "debuting" in Japan. I've written before that there should be some sort of cap on limiting players going abroad. The KFA and the K-League needs to focus on long-term. True, players in Europe might strengthen the NT but it needs to improve quality and the only way to do this is by competition. The only way to enhance competition is by importing and producing higher quality talent. The Korean economy as a whole, cannot compete with Japan. For the time being, Japan will pay the higher wage and there will be more opportunity. However, this does not equate as better. Case in point - the Dutch, as a nation, are the stronger side compared to England. However, the Everdivisie will never be close to the EPL in terms of scale given that its a country the size of Gyeongi province and half the population. But Korea actually has a decent population and mass. This is where the KFA needs to think of a strategy to differentiate itself despite lower wages and scale compared to Japan and China. Less in scale but higher in quality. This is the reason why our youngsters should not head over to Japan and exactly why the KFA needs to look for the equilibrium between supply of talent and demand of football.
Lost me there AC, if we import talent to utimately produce higher quality football - where does that leave the excess homegrown 'talent' since there are less spots to fill now?
Foreign imports are still constrained at 3 + 1 Asian quota. Excess talent, instead of rotting on the bench, needs to go additional newer K-League clubs (which operate at nearly 40 players...too big), like Gwangju. Ideally, Korea needs to develop its second division to expand its market, but the demand simply isn't there. I'm afraid we'll be banned from competing in the ACL without a proper promo/relegation in 2 years and this is outrageous. For the time being, we have a pretty good system but I think the top division needs to be limited to about 10 teams.
