Actually you did say that, and exactly too: So maybe now you can revise and say you didn't mean that but you're wrong, not to be rude or blunt. There's no correlation between having strong forwards and going out on penalties. This is wrong too, unless you're talking about recently ie; WC 06/10 where forward didnt contribute as much as previous years but: Golden boot winner in 1982 was Paolo Rossi with 6 Ditto 1990, Schillaci (another forward) with 6 Baggio, another forward scored 2 in 90' 5 in 94. Vieri (a forward) with 5 in 98 Vieri with 4 in 4 games in 02 (should have been five with one called back against Croatia) Balotelli this year matched the golden boot winner with 3. And it's not like Italy don't get the goals. 2nd most goals scored in 06 with 12. Contrast Spain with 8 in 2010. So this idea that Italy doesn't have strong forwards because of PK eliminations has no bearing in reality, nor does this idea that it is "proven" to you. You're making correlations to two separate issues that don't relate, as I've shown with the Dutch example. Last World Cup, Argentina had (arguably) the best forwards of any team, yet they still went home. Getting eliminated early (or on penalties), therefore, is not a direct measure on the quality of forwards. There are other factors, that I touched on above. Falvo, mate, just admit you are wrong and move on. You've made that point a number of times, and each time it's been clear, but you're failing to accept that this has never been the case. Never in the history of World Cup tournaments, have any national team in any part of the world played as much as club teams. You're just going to have to get used to it. Yet the evidence points to the contrary. Italy actually DO form a cohesive unit more often than not the further they progress into a tournament, as history shows. Again, the playing field is equivalent across the board. All national teams, more or less, play together the same in so far as European countries are concerned. It may be a few more, here / there, for other regions, but none play as often as clubs, punto! If you bothered to read and process what I've been saying, then you'd already know that I think that national teams should play together more, but that it's a pipe dream. That's why you see many coaches selecting players that have and do play together more regularly for their clubs (ie; Juve for Italy, Barcelona for Spain, etc). It's natural that these players with have more chemistry and will integrate quicker. For the record, obviously a national team won't have the same chemistry as a club team: But that IS the SAME for ALL national teams, not just Italy and Italy do attack and do score goals.
dude i hate it when people use bogus stats to justify bad forwards or whatever. There are so many elements involved in judging a forward u cant just throw a stat out there and say they're not good, etc....god man today's world of football has become so backwards its amazing
Admit that I'm wrong? About or for what and why? Because I feel Italy doesn't score a lot of goals as a team in a tournament or because I think they or the forwards should score before they ever get to pk's or because you think they score a lot of goals and I don't? I mean are you questioning my belief or my opinion? I don't see the reasoning behind it but anyway, you don't have to agree with me and its not a big deal if you do or don't so let's just agree to disagree because you will not convince me or change my belief because I stand by it. Moving on......
au ma perche dobbiamo fare una guerra per ogni cosa qua? basta con questa storia ! its a bs comp no reason to get people blood pressure going !
D'accordo e grazie, ma la guerra non l'ho fatto io. Ho detto oppure sto dicendo solo una frase e quello che penso , cioè una pallina dalla testa mia e basta. Veramente non ho capito ne la polemica neppure il discorso o il ragionamento. Comunque sia, auguri di Buone Feste!
whats that got to do with this? You said 2 heavy defeats. There's been 3. 4 if you include confeds cup. Youre wrong. Get over it.
Is that so? I thought it was self explanatory, but it was deja vu after all since you need everything spelled out for you If you really wanted to go for the KO, Champ, you could have picked up on the fact that I didn't even specify tournament and listed all other "heavy" defeats Italy suffered in qualifiers and friendlies over the years and then really thump on your chest!
Lol, you're going to have to do better than that to troll me. I think I've made it pretty clear where your logic is in error. I'm not going to repeat myself. Hav fun talking your cliches with Grosso there. I'm sure the discourse will be stimulating When you state something as "proven" when it can easily be demonstrated as false, it fails to be an opinion any longer I dont get satisfaction convincing stubborn people when they're wrong or changing poorly informed opinions, just trying to provide facts for when said opinions are wrong. I've given several examples and provided facts to prove that which you asserted (as proven) was in error, now you say it's just an opinion. It doesn't matter either way though does it? But you hold onto it if it helps you! You know about bringing horses to water and all that stuff. Same on this end.
Dai, questi forums sonno per discorsi, immensi or no...quindi, leggere quelli che ti piace, e lascie gli altri in pace no need to add unnecessary drama to a disagreement...they're part of these silly forums anyway
It's just a bit of facts and logic Falvo. I seriously don't understand how someone can not get an alternative point of view than their own, when it's presented with real world examples. If holding onto your "world view" when in relates to this sport is so important to you, even if it's just plain wrong, then so be it. If the facts or other examples I gave you seriously cause you to get irritated to the point of thinking this is a war, then I'll gladly bow out of this conversation. FTR, I saw no war. I was just trying to shed some light on what I thought was an ill informed perspective, that's all. Nothing personal when it comes to you.
ma tu ancora insisti o perche voi vincere oppure perche non capici quello che io voglio significare? io sto dicendo solo che quando vengono i tornei, sia l'europeo che il mondiale, l'italia non segna tanti gol. se io non vedo tutti questi gol , non capisco perche non lo devo dire. io ero al mondiale alla finale nell 94 e italia non fece niente solo un tiro in porta da Massaro da fuori area ma nient'altro. e vero che nell 90 Schillaci ha segnato ma quando bisognava segnare contro l'argentina, non ha segnato e sono usciti ai rigori. la stessa cosa nell 98... e vero che Vieri ha segnato molto ma contro la francia non fece niente e non ha segnato e sono usciti fuori ai rigori di nuovo. e poi incominciano dall mondiale del 1982, utilizzando i mondiali come esempio , ancora non vedo dove l'italia ha segnato piu di tre gol....questo è il mio unico discorso. 1982 Italia -polonia 0-0 italia -peru 1-1 italia -camerun 1-1 italia-argentina 2-1 seganano Tardelli e Cabrini un centrocampista ed un difensore l'unica volta che si è salvato fu Rossi con una tripletta brasile ed una doppietta con la polonia... italia -brasile 3-2 italia -polonia 2-0 italia- germania 3-1 Rossi, Tardelli ed Altobelli 1986 bulgaria -italia- 1-1 argentina -italia 1-1 korea- italia 2-3 francia -italia 2-0 1990 italia-austria 1-0 italia usa 1-0 italia czech 2-0 italia-uruguay 2-0 italia -ireland 1-0 italia -argentina 1-1 italia inghilterra 2-1 94 italia-ireland 0-1 italia -norveggia 1-0 italia -messico 1-1 italia -nigeria 2-1 italia -spagna 2-1 italia -bulgaria 2-1 italia -brasile 0-0 italia esce ai rigori 1998 italia -chile 2-2 italia -camerun 3-0 italia -austria 2-1 italia -norveggia 1-0 italia -francia 0-0 esce ai rigori... 2002 korea/japan italia-ecuador 2-0 italia -croazia 1-2 italia -messico 1-1 italia -korea 1-2 italia uscita 2006 italia-ghana 2-0 italia -usa 1-1 czech-italia 0-2 matrix(difensore) - inzaghi italia -australia 1-0 Totti rigore all 95 con un rigore italia-ucraina 3-0 italia-germania 1-2 Grosso (difensore) -Del Piero alla fine nell 121 minuto italia -francia 1-1 gol di matrix un altro difensore italia vince ai rigori 2010 poi hanno fatto proprio uno schifo italia -paraguai 1-1 italia -nuova zelanda 1-1 slovachia -italia 2-1 italia uscita al primo turno.... l'unica cosa che vorrei dire e poi chiudiamo il discorso perche ormai è diventato noioso , è che l'italia non segna tanti gol. ancora non vedo (tranne qualche partita) italia segnare piu di 3 gol... perche l'italia si è fatta fregare dalla spagna con 4 gol e perche tutte queste nazioni del cavolo segnano o portanno segnare tanto e l'italia no , anche una volta sola? perche non segnamo noi 4 gol qualche volta e dove e quando fu l'ultima volta che abbiamo segnato piu 3 gol in un torneo ? nell 1970? il peru batte il camerun 5-1 e italia nello stesso torneo solo un gol , germania arabia saudita 8-0 , argentina 6-serbia 0, giappone -brasile 1-4 , spagna- ucraina 4-0 , ucraina -arabia 4-0, argentina -corea 4-1, germania-australia 4-0, portogallo -korea 7-0, germania -argentina 4-0.... quando mai italia segna cosi? italia non ha mai segnato tutti questi gol in vita sua (tranne 7-1 nell 34) e secondo me, non li segnerà mai ed io tutti questi gol non li ho mai visti... questo è l'unico discorso che volevo fare e senza nessuna polemica.... chiuso il discorso!
Well, I for one can no longer physically take anymore! Every time Italy loses, my left knee hurts and fear if this continues I will be a cripple by the time Brasil starts! I must pray to Jesus and Padre Pio to ask for the strength to endure this suffering!!!
attinente alla guerra Quite the unique troll attempt Falvo, I give you credit there! Not really. I did say that if it bothered you so much to be corrected, I'd bow out, but I guess that wasn't enough for you to not bother insisting forward? I don't insist because I need to win. All I did was simply point out that when you claim Italy has a poor forward line because it's "proven" then later claim it's an opinion, you're contradicting yourself, and that PK losses once in every four years is a poor way to measure forward strength. The hint there might have been more about style of play, and not quality of forwards, but I guess you missed that? You ignored most of what I said anyway, and took it personally for whatever strange reason . No need to get emotional about it really! You even ignored that golden boots of 82, 90, finishing 2nd in most goals scored per player in 94, 5 goal in 5 games in 98 (Vieri) and 4 goals in 4 games in 2002 (Vieri again). All very high counts for forwards in those respective cups. More evidence against your assertion, isn't it? Falvo, I think you have some ridiculous fear of being wrong, obviously, but that's more your problem than mine, isn't it? now you change your argument: Well you're still wrong, see below... That's the best you got? One game? ONE EXAMPLE? Riddle me this; how come Spain could only score 8 in 2010. Why did Italy score 12 in 2006, just one example there that contradicts your conclusion. And who are "all these nationals" who score more than Italy all the time?!? You can't seriously be talking about Germany running up the score 8-0 for Saudi Arabia, or Brazil routing China or Costa Rica 4-0, as significant, can you? Aside from 1986, 2002 and 2010 (as far as World Cups go) when Italy was eliminated earlier than usual in the competition, here are some real world stats: 1982 Nazioni Del Cavolo Goals for: France - 16 Brazil - 14 Italy - 12 W. Germany 12 Top Goal Scorer in 1982: Paolo Rossi (ITA) 6 WOW Zico (BRA) 4 Zbigniew Boniek (POL) 4 Karl-Heinz Rummenigge (GER) 5 Alain Giresse (FRA) 3 Where was Spain and all these nazioni del cavolo in 1982? 1990 Nazioni Del Cavolo Goals for: W. Germany - 15 Italy - 10 WUT?!?! 2nd again...damn Czechoslovakia - 10 England - 8 Yugoslavia - 8 Spain - 6 Argentina - 5 (you mean they made the final only scoring 5 goals en route...they're bad ass!!) Brazil - 4 (HUH?!?!?) I guess using your limited ONE EXAMPLE argument, we can concluded that Brazil don't score much based on this ONE EXAMPLE, right? Top Goal Scorers in 1990: Salvatore Schillaci (ITA) 6 goals - Gee again?!?! Tomas Skuhravy (CZE) 5 goals Michel (SPA) 4 goals Roger Milla (CMR) 4 goals Gary Lineker (ENG) 4 goals Lothar Matthäus (GER) 4 goals 1994 Nazioni Del Cavolo goals for: Sweden - 15 Brazil - 11 Bulgaria - 10 Romania - 10 Spain - 10 Italy - 8 Yes, I'd rather have 15 goals, like Sweden had (4 in consolation) than come within a penalty kick of winning the world cup Top Goal Scorers in 1994: Hristo Stoitchkov (BUL) 6 goals Oleg Salenko (RUS) 6 goals Roberto Baggio (ITA) 5 goals - Another example of weak forwards! Romario (BRA) 5 goals 1998 Nazioni Del Cavolo (Italy out in the QF): France - 15 Brazil - 14 Holland - 13 (another country that, according to you, have weak forwards because of three PK eliminations in tournaments) Croatia - 11 Argentina - 10 Italy - 8 Top Goal Scorers in 1998: Davor Suker (CRO) 6 goals Gabriel Batistuta (ARG) 5 goals Christian Vieri (ITA) 5 goals (more weak forwards, 5 goals in 5 games) Marcelo Salas (CHI) 4 goals Nazioni Del Cavolo Goals scored 2002: (Italy out in 4 - S.Korea debacle): Brazil - 18 (4 against China in group stage - very significant , Germany - 14 (8 scored against Saudi Arabia in group stage) Turkey, Spain - 10 ......... down the line, Italy with 5 Top Goal Scorers in 2002: Ronaldo BRA 8 Miroslav Klose GER 5 Rivaldo BRA 5 Christian Vieri ITA 4 Italy had a top goal scorer in 82, 90, 94, 98, 2002 - Weak forwards for sure Nazioni Del Cavolo goals scored in 2006: Germany - 14 (3 in the consolation match, very significant!! ) Italy - 12 Argentina - 11 Brazil - 10 France - 9 (other finalist) Portugal - 7 (other semi finalist) BTW, Italy actually sits third in overall goals scored in all World Cups, crazy isn't it? MOST GOALS SCORED OVERALL Brazil 210 (West) Germany 206 Italy 126 Allora dove sei tutti questi Nazioni Del Cavolo che sempre segna in piu? Fami Vedere!!! Oh, in 1982 when Italy beat Germany 3-1 in the final. Knocked out Brazil 3-2 (should have been 4-2) and Argentina, Peru (2-0). lololol...ok Falvo...whatever you say! The year they lost the world cup? (2002) And more examples of team running up scores, all in World Cups where they failed to capture the title. Well done! So it's important for you to have Italy run up the score in certain games, even if they were not to win the cup? What your posted above does support one thing though Falvo...and that is: Italy typically get better as the tournament progresses, ie; COHESION. Something you said they weren't good at. Well done So for your benefit; PK losses once every four years has no correlation with strength of strikers, none whatsoever, but you need to be in a position where you watch football more than once every four years to understand that. By your own admission you hardly knew who the Dutch strikers I mentioned were, when as an example I used them to show that indeed losing on PK's does not equate to poor forwards. But, like I said, you can lead a horse to water, though making it drink is another thing. And another thing. If you've really been watching for years like you claim, you should understand already that Italy has never been a team that runs up the score. Like it or not, it's just never been the modus operandi. That still doesn't mean Italy doesn't have good forwards. If that's what really bothers you, then watch American Football, Basketball, or chose Germany as your team to cheer on during qualifiers and when playing minnows then You still have failed to grasp that in the knock out rounds, ALL teams play not to lose first. It's just the way it is. How many 4-0, 8-0 and 5-1 routes are there in knockouts, aside from the most recent exception to the rule in 2012? The rule is typically a 1 goal win for teams in Knockout rounds, or penalties. Go ahead look it up There are a few exceptions to the rule; France 3-0 Brazil in 98, Spain 4-0 Italy in 2012, but for the most part the games are very close and cagey. You don't like that, so you're not really a fan of the game after all. So...hold onto your silly world view, when it relates to football, if you need it for some sort of stability and it makes you happy. No sweat off my back mate! E' finalmente...chiuso il discorso! Ho Vinto?
You still aren't understanding my point but whatever its really not a big deal. Whether its a silly point of view or not, its my philosophy and I think its an important one. I've been watching Italy play since before you were born and I use to love the great defenses they use to employ and getting stronger as the games went through but at least they leaked through. Italy doesn't have those defenders they once had and they can not rely on playing that style and I don't think its possible to employ this style of of play any longer, at least not in today's game. Anyway, this is all besides my point. Of course I know Italy never runs up the score and yes they are one of the strongest teams in the world but I also don't think they are capable of scoring many goals because they don't play together often enough and if they did, I truly believe they would develop better forwards and scoring threats. This is back to my initial point. As a fan, I want to see as many games and/or goals as possible from the national team and I do not care to see lackluster play. Don't think that is unreasonable as that is what every fan wants. To me anyway, scoring goals is the name of the game because when you score, you win. If you are happy with winning by a single goal and watching Italy suffer through qualifying and tournaments, then good for you! Complimenti!
I understand your point, I just categorically disagree with all of it in light of the fact that none of it is supported with evidence. None of the pk=bad forwards, to Italy only winning 1-0 all the time (huge over exaggeration). I just don't understand how someone can stick with a provably false thesis if it isn't for the reason that they just can't stand being proven wrong Anyway, you acknowledge Italy never run up the score, but then say they don't have forwards to do it, which is contradictory. If you understand Italy doesn't run up the score, then it should be easy for you to understand that the reason for not doing so is more of a PHILOSOPHY and not a problem with forwards. A point you've ignored the whole time, and would have saved you a lot of agony. It has nothing to do with being happy or sad, just understanding the real reason why. Italy didn't suffer through the last two qualifiers either, even though it is typical for the NT to wait till the last game in previous qualifiers, it didn't happen the last two times. Just some facts, no need to complain to the mods again If you need to really support a team who runs up scores on minnows just because they can, then go support Germany already. Obviously you don't understand Italy or the national team very well. Totally irrelevant. They play together as much as all other national teams in Europe and South America play together. I was born in 1974 and regardless of how long you've been watching, you talk like you're clueless, and I'm pretty sure you don't watch Serie A often due to the many cliche's that dominate your opinions. I don't think he will. P. Cannavaro wasn't used as stop gap when injuries abounded in the past, and given that Prandelli has bascially said that he'll be using younger up coming talents in the Confed to test for the tollowing year, he'll probably go with more youth experiments so he can build options for the next year. I suspect more of Insigne, Ogbonna (if he gets back to form), De Sciglio, Ascerbi, Destro, etc... do you know them?