ok I should have said 3 clear chances .. but whatever, scoring a hat trick out of 3,4 chances is like unthinkable for any great ones, especially Rossi's standard *thru-out his career For example, take some great names, per important games and overall - Puskas 2goals/5chances (1 disallowed) WC54 final (but his stats in NT was so great ~1GPG) - Ronaldo 2goals/5chances WC02 final ( *and that went well with his stats at WC/Copa ~0.8GPG) that's one game, now if we take overall WC level - Muller 14goals/46shots (or chances 70+74) - ronaldo 15goals/46shots (or chances 98+02) - Rossi: 9goals/23shots (or chances 78+82) = which is great, but his 3/4 at Brazil game was just off standard or like ONE SHOT ONE KILL?
haha good call but the truth is the closest Gentile-esque (but lesser in defense quality) that Brazil ever produced was a Melo at WC 2010 and he RUINED the game vs Netherland with his aggressiveness in defense .. again - only if that game was happening in the 80's LOL
The point is, Italy didn't win that title by their football quality (though they had a very strong team, no doubt about it, but not like Brazil and IMO also not as good as Argentina) or even by Rossi's sudden and short-lived brilliance, but mainly by gentile-esque defending and lenience of the refs. (Which is true also for at least 2 of their other 3 titles). Sure, you can say that this is true to some extent for any football world title. IMO that's not exactly true. Most other titles are doubtful to some extent. But Italy's (3 of them) are quite clearly won by ref errors. And the one of 82 is a shame (as is the other one from fascist times when they were hosts). That's still true today as it was 30 something years ago.
Look at Gentile's effect .. Holding close ... like a newly wed married couple Even his a$$ is a weapon to stop Zico LOL and finally, Zico looked like a peasant in that game with his jerey ripped off ... and look at the ref - as He said to Zico "what's wrong with you, just play on"
[/quote] James BH11, great! That was a penalty! And all the faults near the big area was like penalty for Zico, he was superlative, amazing, excellent, genious... football player!
Yes. Hard to believe what he could get away with back then. The standards were a lot laxer, that's true, but nobody abused them like Gentile, at least in that Cup. First Maradona then Zico, 2 all-time greats in a row. That's probably a record in itself. Then again, from what I heard he was an improvement over previous versions. In older Cups the enforcers didn't bother much with formalities, they went straight to business. And their business was legbreaking (or possibly other body parts, like the germans did to Puskas in 54). Things do improve with time, but a little too slow for my taste. And the titles remain for Italy and others to brag with them.
I dont think the referee abrahim klein had a bad game.. There was an offside just before gentile ripped zicos shirt so thats why he never gave a penalty.. Gentile commited 2 bad fouls on zico and was booked.. Italy didnt cheat.. There were a few trips here and there but nothing nasty..italy had immense respect for brazil ...brazil were the best team in the world.. the reason brazil lost and failed to draw that game is simple - they commited suicide in gifting rossi 2 goals and they underestimated italy.. Knowing that they only needed a draw seemed to make brazil a little complacent.. i doubt anyone loves the brazil 82 team more than me but you have to give italy credit - they won against the odds The only fault i could make with klein was that he didnt make the italian walls retreat back the full ten yards at free kicks..
Italian squad had merits and played well that game. They won. Nothing changes that. As nothing change, even the defeat, how wonderful that Brazilian team were... and are still honored after 32 years... Giles Varley, I did not remember that detail, just how mad we got that time and also remember a drawing in my city newspapers: a dish of pasta and all Brazilians players wrapped in strands of macaroni. It hurted that time!
Yes sandra brazil 82 were a brilliant and beautiful team that the majority of the world fell in love with.. That is why the defeat still hurts to this day.. They threw away the chance of probably the most entertaining and special world cup victory in history..
yes ... Brilliant Brazil's brush with greatness For Socrates, ever the thinker, this was also more than just a defeat, it was a repudiation of a philosophy. He lamented some years later in an interview with Four Four Two: "It may have been the last side to represent Brazil in a World Cup that epitomised the country. It was irreverent, joyful, creative, free-flowing. From that point onwards, the Seleçao became like any other first-world country national side." In Socrates' mind, and many others', Brazil's team of 1982 remain the ultimate standard-bearers for beautiful football, giants of the game, irrespective of whether they actually won that trophy or not.
Giles, you're right - the ref did call an offside before the shirt incident. Then again you're wrong, I just watched it again and even if it's not the best angle, it appears quite clear that there was no offside. It was a wrong call. But it's indeed not Klein's fault. But that doesn't change the main thing, Brazil should have had that penalty and Gentile should have been sent off. Which BTW he should have been on another 3 or 4 occasions, in this game as well as in that against Argentina. And this is Klein's fault as well as the other game's ref. They gifted Italy just one goal, the second one. Then again Italy returned the favor, actually Italy was the first to do it, Socrates' goal was a huge mistake by Zoff. True Brazil didn't have the best defense but over-all the main reason why they lost is still bad officiating. And Gentile.
If you back through the posts of this thread mate you will get a better picture of what i said about the brazil 82 team... I know their games inside out !! i thought gentile and italy were much better behaved against brazil than argentina.. I think brazil gifted italy TWO goals.. The third goal was slack play by junior who should have pushed out and played rossi offside.. i dont really think brazil had a bad defence oscar and luizinho were decent defenders it was just sloppiness and lack of focus..the way people talk you would think that they let in loads of goals but they didnt apart from the italy game ..and that was down to complacency.. the real problem for brazil ironically was the centre forward serginho .. As i ve said go back through the posts and you ll find some interesting information about this game and the brazil 82 team..
You cant really blame zoff or say italy gifted socrates his goal ! It was a wonderful piece of play between zico and socrates that caught italy flat footed and zoff wasnt expecting such a precise finish at his near post... It was a great finish .. And maybe you are right about the offside call but gentile didnt do any wild challenges apart from those 2 on zico.. Gentile knew he couldnt be reckless against brazil because the spotlight was on him after his treatment of maradona the previous game..
On Friday, a friend of mine that has a picture album of World Cup 1982 showed it to me(- I mencioned about the small pictures of it before in my first post here -that time was not produced by Panine like today. The album and pictures were sponsored by a Brazilian bubble gum). He is very jelous of it, he said his son will inherit it. I became very emotional seeing that.
Good for you. Sorry but the thread is too long for me to read it in detail. You'll just have to repeat the relevant bits of info for me, it's easier this way. That may be so, but only because they were truly barbaric against Argentina. I don't think so. Even if what you say is true, that's just a minor error that happened in a very quick and very unexpected turn of events. That's not a gift. Come on. You don't do this as a keeper, you never leave a hole at your near post. Regardless what you expect. And I don't think that was such a great finish, precisely because normally he wouldn't have had a chance. That was a clear keeper's goal. I know Zoff and Socrates were both football legends but let's not idolize them. You blame Junior for a minor error then you overlook Zoff's clear blunder - come on. You're hardly applying the same measure here. He did. I counted at least 2 other situations when he should have received his second yellow. You're right that he should have seen red a few times against Argentina too. All in all, that title was a joke.
Of course I agree that brazil were the best team in 1982... But when you watch that game you have to judge it by the laws of the era.. If you can tell me the other fouls that gentile should have been booked for then fair play.. I can think of 2 ( not including the shirt ripping) ... Fair enough if you think brazil only gave italy one goal ( i know what you mean ) .. But i thought socrates' goal was a cheeky and accurate finish that caught zoff by surprise when he was expecting a cross/pass.. If you want to see it another way then thats your opinion ( i obviously see what you mean ) .. Junior had his worst game for brazil that day especially the first half.. Watch the game again mate.. Cerezo's misplaced pass changed the game .. Even though brazil were still going through to the semis when the score was 2-2 brazil paid the price for having a useless centre forward earlier in the game.. Serginho ruined move after move and missed a complete sitter.. But are you saying italy didnt deserve that trophy ? .. I am happy to exchange opinions of the brazil 1982 team with you - but italy are / were the masters at getting results in tournament football .. They punished brazils mistakes and played well .. Brazil only had themselves to blame for failing to get the draw they needed..
Giles, I do not know if I understand your question properly! That time was a paper ( not a card, a slight paper around the bubble gum that was the picture of the players to glue in the album. The album was almost like the Panine one nowadays. But without the stadium pictures. The album cover had the drawing of toy representing the Ping Pong ( label) doll of the bubble gum. Talking about doll, the mascot of that WC 82 was Larnajito ( there is a picture of it, too). That time we bought this product as never. We don´t have this label any more. The picture was a little smaller the one we have nowadays, I guess.
I can't. I thought I had noted them but looks like I lost the notes. And I'm not going to watch the game again for retrieving them. Anyway, doesn't matter much, it seems we agree that with good reffing, even by the standards of that era, Gentile would have been sent off in both games, vs Argentina and Brazil. That's enough for me. That's exactly what I'm saying. I think it's quite obvious that they couldn't have done it without Gentile and his thuggery, and the lenience of the refs towards him. They didn't only have themselves to blame. The officiating also was very much to blame. True, they made mistakes they shouldn't have, they probably underestimated Italy. It's the same old story. With good officiating Brazil would have won the game, to me that's more or less obvious. Probably also Argentina. Then, of course, Brazil also made mistakes, which maybe were a little more than they should have been. To me that's irrelevant. If a team loses by ref errors, then the result is undeserved even if that team also makes some mistakes (which most of the times they do). Happens a lot more than people think. In fact we're educated to ignore this because if we didn't, we'd realize that a lot of wins and titles are in fact phony. So the line goes, stop whining about the refs, you could have done better yourselves. That's football, today it happened to you, tomorrow it will happen to somebody else, and in the end it evens out. Which is actually not true at all. It doesn't even out. As you said yourself, Italy are the masters in obtaining results. They did it by this sort of tactics in 3 of their 4 world titles (and I don't know about the 4th). If you think that's OK, well, I don't. So much so that I made a site about it. It's at www.fairfootball.com It's not specifically about Italy, but after I did the WCup 2006 and read a little about other tournaments (of course I knew first-hand about the 82 title, but to be very sure I recently reviewed the 3 games of the said triangle group and it confirmed my memories) it was clear that Italy are indeed the masters at getting results. This kind of results. But they're by no means the only ones. BTW, this also means that I'd very much want to see video replays used as a means in aiding the refs, because their job is indeed impossible for mere human beings. As my name says. That's also covered on my site.
Thank you sandra.. I collect brazilian football memorabillia and i was just curious .. Sorry if wasnt clear with my question
That last Brazilian game in WC 1982 was a lesson to me, I´m very humble when someone say the Brazilian team is a favorite in a game. I have never agreed anymore. The football game is played in the fiels, just it, not before. Funny, before the final of the last Confederation Cup in Brazil, people from Spain in Marca newspaper where saying they would win the game because they were playing with their best team against the worst everytime Brazilian team. They were comparing their team with Brazilian team of 1970. Of course, I strongly desagree, it was funny. But, when they compared their team with the the 1982 Brazilian team I had to post my opinion against it. That was too much, in my opinion!
Giles, so I think you have a tourist spot in Nottingham with your collection. Are you comming to Brazil for the World Cup to get new stuff?