I appreciate that you aknowledged my concentration on football rather than politics. Greeks are a bit of elitist, borderline racist people. But its not only towards jews. In regards to WWII, i dont believe that greece gave up the jews easily. they were one of the last countries to fall under german control, because their resistance was so strong. they defeated the italians, which in turn forced the germans to delay their invasion of russia (operation barbarossa) and emphasize on greece. This delay caused the german invasion to take place in the harshest russian winter in 50 years. the nazis were not adequately prepared to battle in such conditions and failed their attempt on russia. it all went downhill after that. Whos knows what would have happened if hitler would have taken russia. Greeks arent all that bad. lets stick to football. I for 1 have inflated my team enough and wont be doing so until after saturdays game.
Guys We can argue who's better, but only the next 2 games will prove it. On paper, Israel has been the better team over the past 5 years, as clearly demonstrated by the FIFA world rankings. As much as we can debate them, they are a clear indication of how a team has done over the past 5 years. There is no arguing that point because it is FACT, ON PAPER and it is official within footballs governing body. Now, who would win between the 2. Well, the only way that can be answered is of course after the next 2 games. I hope that can bring some sense to all this.
Someone on your board at greeksoccer.com posted that some of us here are trash talking because we think you are beatable. And you think you are unbeatable? Come on! Who's really trash talking here? Not saying that you will be beaten, but you can be. You lost to SUI at home, we got a draw. You lost to Russia, and we got 4 points in 2 games from them. This doesn't prove anything conclusively about who will definitely win, and neither does the fact that Israel has been ranked higher than Greece for months, and neither does the fact that in 2008 you lost all 4 games vs. teams in the top 3 pots.... but what it does prove is that Greece is a beatable team. To say that we are trash talking for saying that is ridiculous. By the way, Israel beat Russia in a key game that Russia desperately wanted to win (otherwise it had to depend on Croatia beating England), even though Benayoun wasn't playing. Remember that when you see Greeks posting on your board that Israel has one good player and everyone else is near-amateur.
Just wondering why Greece is playing Israel in Crete and not in Athens....wouldnt they want one of their biggest games to be in a stadium with 50,000 screaming fans.
The Greeks hate everyone people. The Jews are just peanuts for their appetite of hatred. Seriously, Greece can be one of the friendliest and most prolific countries in Europe. Instead, they make issues with everyone; Turks, Armenians, Bulgarians, Pakistanis and muslims in general... Half of Athens are proud/Half are sad that they made a mosque in the city.... Dont forget that Greece had a quasi-fascist regime back before the 1980's and they recognized the PLO before they recgonized Israel..only in 1990 did we make relations...and 90 percent reason for the relations was the fact that the Orthadox Greek Church didnt have any represenation in the holy land.... poor them.... spilling hate and forgetting their religion.... Malakas
when in doubt, look at the gambling spreads. That will really tell you who is expected to win: https://www.bwin.com/betsnew.aspx?leagueIDs=14126,14128,14451,14450,14449,14448,14447,14446,14445,14444,14443&categoryIDs=25&zoneid=in10024/4 Read it and weep, Greece. My money is going with the original Blue and White.
Ya, and while you were winning ur key game and not making Euro 2008, we were held the most points in europe and were already quaified for 2 months. Fifa rankings concentrate on more recent results and give them a higher value. We won the european championship less than 5 years ago. going into euro 08 we were 8th in the world. 8th, above some big teams. the only reason we are 1 spot under you right now is because of the points we lost in the euro. if you made the euro you would be lower than us. ironic but it holds some logic. & yes we are playing in crete because attendance was low and EPO wants to send a message.
that conversation shouldnt have been there in the first place. kappa just found another place to share his infiriority complexe. but its called bigsoccer not big history/politics. kappa youre a big
I completely disagree. They totally ignore the crimes of everyone: they aren't calling for the expulsion of Sudan out of FIFA, they aren't claiming that Germany has no right to exist because of the Holocaust, they aren't claiming that Rwandan genocide didn't happen, they don't mind that their own government arrests people for using the word "Macedonian". But with Jews (using words like "Israel" and "lobby" in reference to Israelis and American Jews), they over exaggerate every little mistake by an individual soldier into "genocides", plural! Disagree with Israel all you want. More power to you. But the level of their hate is completely disproportionate to anything else in the world. They aren't discussing particular facts either. They aren't saying, "this was wrong, and this is what you should've done." They are just mud-slinging, using every hateful word they can think of to accuse the Jews over everything that comes to their head. They are literally tripping over each other to come up with a worse word for what "Israel" and "The Lobby" has done, with no proof cited. Again, it's not about criticizing Israel. It's about irrational hate of Jews world-wide. They aren't criticizing Israel because it did something wrong. It doesn't matter if "Israel" (Israeli Jews) or "Lobby" (American Jews) did anything wrong. If Israel and the AIPAC lobby will suddenly dedicate itself to feeding the poor and will allow any Palestinian to have sex with their wives and daughters, the Greek rhetoric will not stop. It doesn't matter what we do. They are blind with hatred, as taught to them by their openly anti-Semitic governments.
Why? All the Greek forum are full of anti-Semitic hate. Why can you use a football game to call for genocide of Jews, to support anti-Jewish terror, to deny the Holocaust, to accuse Israel of evil things it didn't even come close to doing, but we aren't allowed to respond?
FIFA rankings SHOULD concentrate on recent results. There is no doubt that Greece was superior to Israel five years ago. At the time, your team was in its prime, and 90% of Israel's current team wasn't playing yet (all those 23-26 year olds were 18-21). I will also give you that your team is more talented today. But your problem is that you are old and several players are out of shape. In 2004, Israel would've been lucky to get 1 point in two games from Greece. It would've played for a tie at home and then would expect to lose on Crete. But it's 2009. Israel improved and Greece got older. As far as Israel's rank, you are presuming Israel would've lost all 3 games. Last time around, it got a pair of ties in 3 games, against Sweden and, gulp, Italy. This is not 1970, of course, but Israel today is not weaker than Israel in 1970, and Italy was a power at the time, while Sweden was an ok to mediocre team (for WC) just as it is today. There's no reason not to think that Israel could've pulled off a draw or two, or even win a game. Maybe not, but why such an automatic presumption? I am sure you would've presumed that Russia's young team would've lost all 3 games had they not made it (if only England had beaten Croatia in the last game). Israel got 3 draws against France and Spain in recent years. It got a draw and a win vs. Russia. A bunch of draws vs. SUI and Ireland. You never know what can happen once you make it. This is particularly true for a team that never plays big games and players would know that these are likely the only 3 games on the big scene in their life. The kind of effort and ferocity these teams sometimes display is sometimes worth more than talent alone. That is exactly why Greece won the EC. It was nowhere near the most talented team in Europe, but the Greeks knew that this is only the second time they made the EC and the first in 24 years, so thinking that every game may wind up being the last one of their life, they played with ferocity unmatched by others. And like I said, you are underestimating Israel's talent. It is not the horrible one-man (Benayoun) team that it was five years ago. This team beat Russia without him.
So you should definitely put your money on this game then! You expect not just a win, but a win by two goals by your team. What a great opportunity to make money! And yes, you will be the favorites on Crete. But the fact that oddsmakers - you know, the people who would lose millions if they were wrong - predict an Israel win shows that your team is definitely beatable. Again, not saying that it will be beaten, but it's beatable. Your belief that Israel is some sort of Moldova is greatly mistaken.
And one more thing: During the 1968 and again in 1976 Olympics, Israel completely unexpectedly went to the quarterfinals BOTH times. Once you make it, you never know, anything can happen. (In 1972, your Arab friends murdered the Israeli Olympic team.) In 1976, it got 3 draws in 3 games, including against France and Mexico (and Guatemala). In fact, it finished ahead of the very decent Mexican team. France scored with 10 minutes to go to tie the game or else Israel would've finished first in the game. It then lost to Brazil. In 1968, Israel won 2 (Ghana and El Salvador) and lost 1 (Hungary, then a real power). Israel got a draw vs. Bulgaria, but lost on penalty kicks. Otherwise, it would've gone to the semi-finals. Bulgaria went on to lose in the Finals, taking second place. So let's look at Israel's record in 11 games in the Olympics and WC: 2-6-3 Won: 2 (Ghana and El Salvador) Draw: 6 (Italy, France, Mexico, Bulgaria, Sweden, Guatemala) Lost 3 (Brazil, Uruguay and Hungary) Again, it's been a long time with different players. But don't just presume that Israel is a permanently talentless team that would get run over by everyone. Whenever Israel made it, most of its games ended in draws and wins. In none of the tournaments did they lose more than 1 game. That's not just talent, but desire to win when you get your rare chance.
FIFA rankings DONT concentrate on more recent results, they concentrate on the last 5 years. While Greece were qualifying from a group that probably had the least talent in Europe (aside from Turkey), Israel were paired with Croatia, England and Russia, and managed to beat Russia and tie England and probably played Croatia the best out of the other teams, which is saying a lot considering how dominant Croatia was in the group, especially winning IN Wembley. No one is taking away the fact that you won the Euro's in 2004, but your performance in 2008 was one of the worst footballing experiences I've ever witnessed. Hell, you can label the 2004 performance as "anti-football", but credit is due because however ugly they played, they won and thats all that matters. We're not arguing who's football is better aesthetically, but it is indicative of where a teams mentality is. Greece = 11 behind the ball. You can argue it all you want, you can say your team is better, but its just ignorance and stupidity. Every other football fan in the world will agree with that statement, so for your own sake, dont deny it either. Looking back in history, Israel won the Asian Cup in 1964, they were runners up in 1956 and 1960 and 3rd place in 1968. You can laugh and say its the "asian cup", but its that regions equivalent of the euros. Also, like Israel, Greece have only qualified for the World Cup ONE TIME, in 1994 and lost all 3 games.
Yossi Benayoun might not be able to play. He's getting checked by the NT Doctor right now. Gili Vermut seem to be the second option. Due to his form in Hapoel Tel Aviv I think it's the right choice, but Kashtan should also use Bruchian.
Well guys i'm a Greek Australian and a member of the GreekSoccer forums. I'm not going to comment on the political shit mainly because I wouldn't know what i'm talking about and would rather talk about the upcoming game. I will attempt to familiarise you with our team, without saying we're just old and were once talented. I see Israel as the main threat in this group, and in a lot of ways remind me of Russia currently. The team is very young and unknown to us and will no doubt be very fast and hard to handle for our big men. I see Otto using very defense minded tactics (surprise! lol) and hoping for a counter-attack goal or something from a set peice. This is something Greek fans have learnt to accept and live with, as shown by all 36 people who turn up to wacth International matches in Athens recently. One thing I don't know if you guys have mentioned but Katsouranis is unable to play in this match, which is a BIG let down IMO. So if we go off what Otto has done in the past, Patsatzoglou will take his place. Judging from the squad selected by Otto, this is how I predict Otto will play: ================== Chalkias =================== Seitaridis ------- Kyrgiakos ------- Dellas ------- Torosidis -------- Patsa -------- Basinas ------- Karagounis ------- --------- Charisteas ------ Gekas ---- Samaras ---------- This line up is basically an Otto special. The positioning of our guys makes for a very defensive and boring game on our behalf. Most of the players in this line up are in makeshift positions and serve as defenders and set peice players. Greece playing this way is hard to break down, and are all hard working. I would (and most of the people I know) like to see the following: ================== Tzorvas =================== Seitaridis --- Kyrgiakos ---- Papastathopoulos --- Torosidis ----------------- Patsa -------- Basinas ----------------- ----- Karagounis ------ Samaras ----- Koutsianikoulis ----- ------------------------ Gekas -------------------------- Say what you like about Gekas' fitness and match time this year but as he has shown with every International match recently, he is still able to score and is a terrific goal poacher. Charisteas is just as important for our NT. He would definately come on in the match as Otto loves him to death. The guy has a golden head and rarely goes through an NT match without scoring. Players To Watch: Karagounis - Bleeds for his club and country. He NEVER stops running and can be deadly from set pieces. Samaras - Arguably has the most raw talent in the squad. When Samaras is on fire he's dangerous. Pity he hasn't shown it for Greece yet. He'll likely be used as a target man or out wide if Otto goes with a 4-3-3. Seitaridis - I would say that when he's in form he's the best player on the team. If he feels like running up the line to create he's a massive threat. Great defensively and terrific crosses into the box. Gekas - He'll have his heart set on showing Pompey manager Hart that he deserves at least 1 minute playing time in the EPL. He'll hang in the box and bury a goal or two if he gets the service. Charisteas - Works his ass off all game. Defends like a machine and has a knack of scoring in almost every appearance for the NT. He also cops the most flack from Greeks (maybe Basinas cops more now) due to his lack of ball control but you can always count on Charisteas to come up with the goods when we need it most.
Well even if you talk to the most die hard Greek fan I don't think you'd get much of an argument out of him on some of this. Watching our team bounce back after the shocking 4-1 loss to Turkey IN Athens on Greek Independence Day to see them completely dominate and play determined ATTACKING football against Turkey IN Istanbul, and then seeing them go on to beat Portugal, Czech Republic and wipe the floor with the remainder of the group in qualifiers for Euro 2008 was nothing short of terrific. However... The moment the formation was revealed against Sweden in the opening match of Euro 2008, every Greek fan wanted Otto's head. We deserved to lose, and I don't know many who would disagree. ANYBODY who watched Greece qualify would know that this wasn't the same team. Russia. Well... this game was really up in the air and to say otherwise is stupid. The only goal scored in the game was from the biggest ********up ive ever seen by Nikopolidis. Not to mention to "offside" goal Gekas scored in the dying minutes. Spain. Not a bad match. Both sides played without full strength squads and ended 2-1 to Spain... who eventually won the tourny. In the end teams will play to their strengths. The formation Otto utilizes does not allow Greece to play an attractive attacking brand of football. Otto is from the German school of football where organization and discipline at top priority and step-overs and one touch passing plays second... or third fiddle. Anyone who follows the Greek side and it's players, and then sees how the National Team plays will know that they CAN play a different brand of football. Players like Charisteas who is often thrown onto the wing up front is virtually ineffective due to his lack of ball control skill. He should be benched for a proper winger or moved to CF, in which case Greece has better players for that position. The use of Basinas is still a mystery to some. God knows why Pompey purchased him. Torosidis is a gun, however Otto uses him as a LB, when he plays as RB for Olympiakos. Sure it'll be hard to displace Seitaridis from his position, but Toro CANNOT cross with his left and is handicapped by his positioning. You'll see when he crosses against your team... Katsouranis is the classic example of bad management by Otto. Since 2004 and the retirement of a few key individuals, Otto has used him as a deep lying defensive midfielder, where he's very ineffective. Only recently has Otto eased up and used him as more of a box-to-box midfielder, and found out why he's Benfica's MVP for 2009. As for the USA WC 94 fiasco... Thats a massive story unto itself. We'll be here all night.
Finally, a Greek fan with some reasoning. We can now have a quality conversation about this game. After everything that has been said, we need to be very careful with this Greek team. We cannot afford a tie here, because thats what we are predicting in Crete. We need to win, and Greece has a stubborn defense, and would be happy with a tie in Israel. We also need break down their counter. Thats what they are planning for and Israel needs to have a good plan to break it down. BTW, what was the whole fiasco in WC94? Just summarize it.
Those were the arguments last time around in reference to Israel not losing a single game in Qualifiers for WC'06. Israel played ugly football, but it would get wins against weaker teams and draws against stronger ones.
I must say, if Benayoun is out or unable to play well, Israel's chances of getting 4 points are slim to none. Even 2/3 points would be extremely tough to get. If he's out, so is the team.
Let me tell you this: The first time I saw Batistuta play was against Greece, and I remembered him ever since. He had a hat trick (3 goals). They lost all 3 games by a combined score of 0-10. I am not sure what the circumstances around their team were, like if there was in-team fighting or injuries. Nor did I see their other 2 games. But the game vs. Argentina is something that's still clear in my mind, and the Greeks didn't look like they belonged. That said, they did improve. And I wish Israel had made it that year and played poorly - still better than not making it. (Israel actually knocked out France in qualifiers that year.) But here's the thing: when Israel made it to the WC, Asian Championships or the Olympics, it looked like a decent team that belongs. Three losses in 11 Olympic and WC games isn't bad. Anyway, here's to hoping that I am right about the Greeks being old because if they are still in their old 2004 form, Israel is in trouble.