Israel/Palestine in the News, Part IV

Discussion in 'International News' started by JBigjake, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. teammellieIRANfan

    teammellieIRANfan Member+

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    I think you have misunderstood the point of these rockets. The fajr rockets have no guidance system. Talking about targets is not relevant, as they are unguided rockets. Suited to saturate Israeli air defense or at least make it very expensive for Israel to carry the conflict on, and thus deter Israeli invasion of Gaza. Classic case of assymetric war.


  2. Iranianfootie

    Iranianfootie BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    For the pro-Palestinian camp to say that IDF is guilty of war crimes is a stretch. Israel (or no country can tolerate rockets falling on its citizens whether they kill anyone or not).

    The way I analyze these situations is to put myself into the shoes of the belligerents in the conflict. Even as an Iranian, I can understand why Saddam invaded Iran in September 1980 and it was not purely for greedy goals of grabbing Iranian land. I think it was the fact that he found Iran to be militarily weak for obvious reasons, Iran losing US support (and hence its main arms supplier) AND he himself felt that Khomeini was a serious threat to him with a successful IRI able to instigate Shia rebellions against him. Now the shah was also a threat to him until the mid 1970s as well but since Iran was far stronger militarily and had US support, it would be suicidal for him to attack Iran in the early 1970s. And Iran in many ways acted like Israel is doing in this conflict. Iran killed MANY Iraqi civilians in that conflict as well...obviously Iraq killed a lot of Iranian civilians as well and also actually used WMDs with the sanction of the international community. There was the war of the cities when Saddam initiated a terror campaign against Iranian civilians and Iran hit back with the same tactic. It didn't just rest an do nothing...so for those that are saying that Israel must rest and do nothing but allow Iran to hit back at Iraq are being very hypocritical.

    HOWEVER, big caveat, I am also aware there are big differences between the Iran-Iraq war and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. While the Iran-Iraq war was a one time thing for almost a decade with it building up due to geopolitical reasons, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a continuing conflict for a long time. There is the difference that Israel is far stronger than the Palestinians and will always be with US support and Iraq gained groupnd andn became stronger than Iran since Iran couldn't buy spare parts for its arms.

    That said, I see similarities as well particlarly as it relates to who started the conflict. Arabs say that Saddam was provoked into invading Iran due to Khomeinis intrefering in Arab affairs. Iranians say that Saddam invaded Iran without provocation. Israelis say Palestinians/Arabs attacked Israel without provocation and hit back hard. Arabs say that Israel is repressing the Palesitnians. This suggests to me that Israel can't militarily solve this issue but it also can't do nothing if rockets are falling in Israel. This all underscores the importance of implementing the two state solution.

    That said, I don't understand the made that say that Hamas is putting missiles/rockets into residential areas in Gaza
  3. Iranianfootie

    Iranianfootie BigSoccer Yellow Card

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  4. Naughtius Maximus

    Naughtius Maximus Member+

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    Nah, that's definitely not true...



    :D


  5. Naughtius Maximus

    Naughtius Maximus Member+

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    And going out of your way to piss people off for no useful purpose, that's helping them too, is it? Stop with the pretence you give a shit, you're not fooling anyone.

    The only reason you're 'helping' them is to push your 'greater Persian caliphate', (or whatever TF it's called), agenda, i.e. the same as the more deranged Israeli nutters version of 'greater Israel'.

    If you REALLY cared for them you'd keep your mouths shut about all this holocaust denial' crap, stop tweaking the nose of the yanks for no purpose.

    They're just as much a pawn in your 'game' as the extreme religious Israelis, (who insist on living in the occupied territories), are for the 'end of days' yank loonies.
  6. teammellieIRANfan

    teammellieIRANfan Member+

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    I wouldnt classify myself as either pro-Palestinian or pro-Israel, as I dont have more emotional attachment or investment for one side than the other.It is simply a wrong premiss, because any unconditional support are in majority of cases, idelogically induced, rather from an objective standpoint. I just call out atrocities whenever I see them, regardless if they are commited by Hamas or Israel. And they have been commited on both sides. I think there are errors on both sides of the conflict, and everyone should be held accountable for their misdeeds.
    Moishe repped this.
  7. Naughtius Maximus

    Naughtius Maximus Member+

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    Yes, like I said, you can end up destroying the very thing you're meant to be protecting. The biggest danger to Israel remaining as a free, democratic society is Israel, itself. The story of that Levy fella proves that. A citizen of a supposedly free society not allowed to travel freely.

    Of course, that sounds very familiar to some of us. We did precisely the same sort of thing in NI where we used control orders, (stopping people's movement), and internment without trial as means, supposedly, to end terrorism. All it ended up doing was CREATING more terrorists.
  8. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

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    They aren't nearly as exciting or gory as the narco cartels.
  9. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

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    Call me crazy, but this latest round of developments just set the prospects of peace back by at least a decade.

    The extremist Palestinians have strengthened their hand with the patronage of Morsi and Egypt. I can't remember a time in the last ten years where Mahmoud Abbas has been so invisible and ineffective. In the last 10 years Hamas has reinvented itself from a fringe terrorist group to a legitimate political force. This is the worst possible development for any potential future peace.

    As for Israel, well they're paying the price for not wanting peace. The Israelis are ridiculous. They basically take Arab lands, lock the people into a cage with no food and bomb them every few years. They keep rattling the cage and then they say to the world "look they're so angry and behave like animals". Israel needs to remember that they created the animals. It's their responsibility. When you deny people basic human dignity, they stop behaving like humans.

    And this brings me to America. What a policy failure. Everything that America does just strengthens Hamas. America goes to Morsi to broker a cease fire. This very actions gives legitimacy and political power to Hamas. Instead of begging Morsi for help, America would be better serve to bring down the hammer on Israel. The only path to peace is Israeli concessions. The only path to Israeli concessions is American pressure.

    Unfortunately I fear that it may be too late. The time for this was a long time ago when Arafat was around. But Israeli greed ruined that prospect all because little plots of land and settlements were more important to them than the big picture of peace. The Israeli citizens should extinguish this Likud madness once and for all and realize that they and only they have the power to make peace by their sacrifice. Without sacrifice today the animal in Palestine just becomes more desperate and violent in the future. Israel needs to accept responsibility now for their historical crimes and extend the hand of peace to Palestine by making sacrifices.

    If Israel sacrifices everything and Arabs try to murder Jews and drive them into the sea anyways, then I will change my position and support the IDF in the defense of their people.
    thebigman and M repped this.
  10. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator Staff Member

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    So much load of crap in the post above, it's like it was written by an uneducated 12-year old who gets his news from Al-Jazeera. Hmmm....someone from Romania.....can't say I'm surprised. Not exactly a great history when it comes to Jews.
    Mr. Conspiracy repped this.
  11. odessit19

    odessit19 Member

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    Jews should feel very comfortable that you you will change your position. Maybe kill few a million first and you'll reconsider your very pragmatic stance. Only if Jews would be a little more peaceful and not fight back, then they would be so much more likeable as people.
  12. teammellieIRANfan

    teammellieIRANfan Member+

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    Mr. Conspiracy repped this.
  13. Naughtius Maximus

    Naughtius Maximus Member+

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    Yeah, I'm not sure he helped his case with that last paragraph did he :D

    But he's right in saying the prospects for peace have been put back and WILL be put back with each of these actions as they occur. The only answer is a political solution.
  14. Naughtius Maximus

    Naughtius Maximus Member+

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    A bit like this fella...

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...on-Gilad-calls-on-Israel-to-flatten-Gaza.html

    In all honesty these guys are correct in saying this is simply delaying the next period of conflict. What they're missing, however, is that that leads one to only one conclusion... that the answer to 'The Palestinian question' is a 'final solution'. I seem to remember someone trying that once before with another group. Not sure it worked out too well, did it.
  15. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator Staff Member

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    What a civilized bunch.
    [​IMG]

    Meanwhile...
    [​IMG]
  16. Perndog2006

    Perndog2006 Red Card

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    I beg to differ, the IDF warplanes cowardly bombing of civilians and children can make things a bit different than the drug war in Mexico.
  17. Moishe

    Moishe Moderator Staff Member

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    No need to beg Pern. Both are pretty cowardly and outright shitty but the level of brutality from the cartels far surpasses that of anything the IDF has done and for that matter many of the extremists around the world. Most troubling is that the drug war is happening on OUR borders yet most folks on this site that live in the states would rather focus on something happening infinitely further away and has little if any effect on us. Your outrage while somewhat understandable is kind of misguided or misdirected.
  18. Perndog2006

    Perndog2006 Red Card

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    meh, the media here blows it out of proportion, I have been to Mexico many times during these tough times and speak with my relatives there, its bad don't get me wrong. but I can definitely assure you that my family there is not afraid of some random IDF airplane bombing their house and killing all of their family members. I will tell you that one of my cousins was in the casino that burned down and 50 people died. she was definitely shaken, but from what she tells me, that is the only time she felt her life was in danger from the 6 years the drug war has gone on.

    I can't say the same for the palestinians who are now suffering from war crimes by the IDF.

    its despicable what they have to go through every israeli election.
  19. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

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    That's not what I said. I support Jews fighting back, but not in the current environment. The current environment just kills Hamas leaders in order to make way for their sons who will be even crazier than their fathers. It's not in my interest to see every Palestinian generation be more psychopathic than the last.

    I just think that Israel is the side that holds most of the power in the current situation. They have a functioning democratic government. They have the stronger army. They have the support of America. They have a functioning diplomatic apparatus since they're a sovereign nation. Palestine has none of these things. All Palestine has is Arab solidarity and military support from one of the most hated nations in the world ... Iran.

    Since Israel has most of the power and most of the advantages, in order to secure the peace they need to come to the table with more concessions than they've ever offered in the past. It's better to engage politically now than risk bigger wars in the future. I don't claim to have all the answers. For example I have no idea what to do about Jerusalem. But a good place to start would be to withdraw from settlements, open up blockades, recognize Hamas as a legitimate group that represents Palestinians, absorb a larger number of Arab refugees into Israel etc ... I understand these things don't have any benefit for Israel, but I just see no other alternative.

    The alternative is the status quo. Palestinians have nothing to concede. The only thing they have left is martyrdom and their stupid rockets.
  20. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

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    And you claim to be enlightened with your posting in this thread? Repeating IDF propaganda does not bring any enlightenment to anything.

    I don't care whether you agree with me or not, but I'm not an uneducated 12 year old.

    And if you're suggesting that my nationality is the equivalent of stupidity ... well you're basically showing your low level of intelligence. I'm not even ethnically Romanian. I'm part of an ethnic minority that had its land taken away post WWII. This is why I have an inherent solidarity with Palestinians. Except our land was taken by our neighbors who we have lived with side by side for centuries. It's part of our history. The borders are redrawn every few generations. Palestinians had their land taken by immigrants ... 98% of whom did not even live there before the 1800's. I can't imagine how a people could accept such a fate without resistance.

    I feel like despite my solidarity with Palestine, I wish very strongly for the wellbeing of Jews in the Middle East. Unfortunately I don't think Israel's current policies are good for anyone in the long term, including Jews.
    Umar repped this.
  21. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator Staff Member

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    Your post clearly indicate your knowledge of ME history is sorely lacking, specifically in regards to your inherent solidarity with people whose land has been taken away. I don't want to go into another umpteenth history lesson about whose land and why has been taken away, but it ain't as black and white as you are indicating. So forgive me for not caring very much about your solidarity. And your posts do not show in any shape or form how you feel "very strongly" for the well-being of the Jews in the ME, especially when you say "The Israelis are ridiculous. They basically take Arab lands, lock the people into a cage with no food and bomb them every few years" or "If Israel sacrifices everything and Arabs try to murder Jews and drive them into the sea anyways..." Israel sacrifices a lot more than it should (how the hell do you think Gaza even has water or electricity), Israel left Gaza, kicked out the settlers that lived there, while actually spilling Jewish blood in the process. What did they get in return? Thousands of rockets. If Hamas wanted diplomacy, they certainly could approach things in another way. As you correctly pointed out, they behave like animals....but not b/c they are put in that situation, but b/c they are animals. How Hamas deals with their own people is nothing short of what wild animals would do. The care that they show for their women or children is even more despicable. To blame Israel for that simply shows that your inherent support for Palestinians is nothing short of bullshit and lack of knowledge about the historical roots of the problem. And you know what, that's ok, I'm not here to change your mind, just don't patronize us here with utter garbage about the history of your people and Palestinians. And finally remember, Palestinians never wanted nor cared about their so-called home when they lived under the Jordanian rule.....and they only started caring about that when Israel was established. So again, perhaps your hostile feeling should be addressed to their fellow Muslim "brothers" and now the little tiny piece of land called Israel.
  22. Boloni86

    Boloni86 Member+

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    I never said it was black and white. I understand the history. I've known many Israelis in my day. Virtually every Israeli I've known can trace their family more than 100 years back to places like Morocco, Iran, Latvia, Russia and Romania. After the 1948 war many hundreds of thousands of Arabs were expelled to make room for the new arrivals. From the Palestinian POV it's hard to rationalize things differently when faced with that fact. It takes some serious mental acrobatics to change those facts. We can blame the Ottomans, the British Empire, the Nazis or whomever ... it still doesn't change those facts.


    Just because I don't support Israel doesn't mean I'm against the citizens of Israel. Also just because I don't support Israel, it doesn't mean that I support Hamas either. The way I look at it Israel is in the wrong, but we can't turn back the hands of time. Whatever solution is reached has to guarantee the safety of all the Jewish people that live in the ME today.

    Oh wow water and electricity ... The Soviets provided water and electricity to Moldova and Armenia and Estonia ... How did that work out for them? And Israel left Gaza? Wow, thanks. Can you explain ... what were they doing there in the first place? Also as I understand it Israel still controls the coast, air space and the borders. Hooray freedom!


    Maybe because living under Jordanian rule was not as drastic as living in a newly formed Jewish state, formed mostly by immigrants who came there from outside the region. Also Iraq was only formed in 1958. Syria 1946. Jordan 1946. Saudi Arabia 1932 ... Does this also mean that all these lands could of also been up for grabs as long as the British Empire was OK with it? I wish my ancestors would of known that it was so easy. They could of all immigrated to Saudi Arabia in 1890 and now I'd have a nice beach front property on the Red Sea
  23. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator Staff Member

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    You didn't have to, I can read between the lines. Again, w/out actually knowing the history, it's very easy to say that hundreds of thousands of Arabs were "expelled". But knowing some history definitely does shed light on what and what happened. I'm also glad you said it was Arabs that were expelled, but then said if was the Palestinians who have to face the facts. So you do know then that it was the Arabs and not the Palestinians who lived on those lands. Huge difference. Finally, if you acknowledge that you can blame all those parties you mentioned, why only mention Israel in your original posts.......only to end with "it doesn't change those facts." I can also say that Israel is there now, Jerusalem is the capital and some of West Bank belongs to Israel.....those are facts as well, but I highly doubt you'd be satisfied with the status quo.

    You're all over the place. You can't support the citizens of a country and not support the country. What does that even mean? I also didn't say you supported Hamas, however, in your original post, you lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of Israel, without one mention of the crimes committed by Hamas. This makes it hard to see how you are not sympathetic to Hamas cause. And then you say Israel is in the wrong......so if you don't see things as black and white (as you said so in your 1st paragraph), how is that you see one party as being in the wrong? All over the place my friend.

    You don't need to tell me about the Soviets.....I grew up there. Any comparison to Israel is intellectually misleading at best. What was Israel doing in Gaza? I thought you're a history buff?
    Please educate yourself on the wars of 1948 and 1967 and that will give you the answer of what Israel was doing in Gaza. But since you're a huge fan of "facts on the ground", facts: Israel left Gaza, Hamas took over, Hamas launches daily rockets indiscriminately on Israel's citizens. Israel supplies power to Gaza. So given those facts, any sane nation would want to control what is going on in and around such a nice bunch of citizens.

    Or maybe, once again, you don't know the history of the region. By a long mile was the treatment of Palestinians worse under Jordanian rule. Not as drastic you say? I guess Black September was a walk in the park. Please stop with saying things you clearly you have very little idea about.
  24. Umar

    Umar Member+

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  25. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member

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    Actually, Boloni86 seems quite familiar with the history of the region and articulate in his viewpoints. I may not agree with him on some of his comments, but he is obviously one of the more informed posters here.

    As for the "history" that posters like yasik or odessit like to peddle, that "history" is the one that would take a long time to forcibly implant, even more so in this day and age, and reminds us that even if "history is written by the victors in war", there are nonetheless limitations to what those victors can credibly write!

    Of course, that kind of nonsense will hardly be remembered once the one thing that commends it, namely the fact that is the line that is being peddled by the victors of the past Arab-Israeli wars (particularly 1948 and 1968), is no longer germane. When the folks who were once the victors will be turned into the vanquished.

    Not that I want the Jews to be driven out of the Middle East. I am one of the few anti-Israeli Iranians who sincerely hopes that the ultimate solution will include room for a Jewish homeland (one friendly to Iran) in the Middle East. Which is why I have developed the Palestine Confederation idea: a Palestinian confederation composed of Israel, Gaza, the West Bank, and an autonomous capital city of Jerusalem. No need to cut any of the babies in half or in some other divisions. Just make sure that all of them are instead put back to their proper place and position and treated equitably.

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