Ah yes, the one mans freedom fighter is another's terrorist. Simply put Sharon and Arafat are birds of a feather. They are either both terrorists or both leaders/fighters for their people. Hypocrisy is a funny thing isn't it?
But then Sharon was a US ally while arafat and others were not. I remember well the 80's and it wasn't Israelis that were hijacking planes out of Athens on a weekly basis. Or attacking US Marine barracks in Lebanon. Just to name a few instances. Of course much of what happened was during the Cold War and Arafat was firmly in the pocket of the USSR. http://www.newjerseysolidarity.org/plobulletin/vol4no19nov1978/palestine_notes.shtml
No he is not, there is no moral equivalency here. Sharon is a butcher Arafat using classic insurgency methods to fight a much stronger opponent.
They'd won their statehood using the same methods, hadn't they... just not against the USA. As to Sharon being a US ally... yes, well, that would be part of the problem then, wouldn't it. In fact, from a Palestinian perspective, a US 'satellite' would be closer to the truth. As you said, Arafat and Sharon were two of a pair. To my mind, they should have been viewed, (and treated), the same.
Sharon was indeed a US ally, not sure satellite fits cause Israel still did and does what it wants and not always what the US would prefer. Still major issues that exist in the ME revolve around what happened during the Cold War and the US hung its hat with Israel and the USSR with the arab states. We see who won.
Yeah bombing nightclubs and discos are classic terrorism er insurgency. You are so blinded that you cannot see that sharon and arafat are two sides of the same coin. You could place sharon in arafats place and vice versa and you would have gotten the same results. Its very telling that you cannot see this.
Remember I am the one who said they were the same, you are the one trying to condemn one while praising the other. BTW, Blackhawks don't bomb anything, they have various guns on them but aren't attack choppers like Apache and Cobras are. Of course you ignore that the PA and now hamas hide among the people using them as human shields when they fight Israel. Not too many military targets in a nightclub in Tel Aviv....
Bombing of civilians is regrettable and should be condemned but until we get to the root cause nothing will be solved, including the terror thing. This is symptom of a larger problem which is the assymetrical balance between Israel (occupying force and opressor) and Palestine (the occupied) Israel is Goliath and Palestine is David.
Not praising attacks on civilians. Asymmetrical and guerrilla warfare to prove a larger point and to bring a political conclusion or settlement is different than Israeli aggression which has always been disproportionally used. PA has always been legitimate source of national resistance. Hamas was essential a creation of Israel is was suppose to be a counterweight to fatah instead it has grown into a demon they could not contain.
Had those attacks been against military targets I would agree. Same with Iraq, Afghanistan, etc... but when you attack nightclubs, buses, things like that it isn't asymmetrical warfare, it is terrorism. There is a difference between military and civlian targets, and from my POV that is something that seems intentionally ignored by those opposed to Israel, and the US when it comes to the ME. Hiding military assets among civlians and firing from apartment buildings and the like are cowardly and simply a propaganda act to try and draw sympathy all the while showing how little they care for the people they are supposed to be fighting for. hamas was a creation of Israel? LOL ok if you say so..... I love hearing this bs about disproportionate use of force. Really? Should each side only have 100 people and they have to have the same weapons and same amount of ammo? And each side has to have the same cover, body armor etc too right? Of course in all this confusion about Palestine, it still stands out how only Israel is ever to blame for the problem of Palestine not existing. All the blame and anger goes on Israel, yet nobody points the finger at Egypt and Jordan, and Syria for stealing the land set aside for Palestine back in 48. Nobody cares that all the people of Palestine are sitting in concentration camps in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, and are treated far worse than people living in the West Bank. Not saying Israel doesn't shoulder any blame or burden in this situation, but its time for the People of Palestine to point fingers at their Arab brothers and demand better treatment from them as well.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847 http://middleeast.about.com/od/israelandpalestine/a/me090126.htm Anybody who knows ME or Israeli Palestine affairs understands Mossad created Hamas as a counterweight to The secular PLO. Stop with the Israeli line of the Palestinians are terrorist who use human shields while Israel "never d hurt civilians". Israel in a bloodthirsty manner have killed thousands of civilians through their use of indiscriminate bombings, full frontal land assaults and invasions, heavy handed use of checkpoints, land grabbing, draconian indefinite use of detention, forcible population removals, war crimes committed against Palestinian civilians (Jenin), use of phosphorus gas and napalm in their bombing runs, a humanitarian blockade on Gaza and the list goes on. There is a reason why Israel is a pariah state and is looked upon as a pariah throughout the world. Are you really talking about Palestinians refugee camps? let us sit back and ask ourselves why are they in those camps. oh that right Israel took their land removed them from their homes and refused to let them come Home. Save your arguments for an AIPAC convention.
So this quote here means Israel created hamas? Standard gibberish citing half truths and ignoring facts. Tell me again who took control of the west bank, gaza, and other areas in 1948? http://www.indaweb.com/oil/editorialopinion/tzemach.news.service01l.htm And why are the palestineans being held in concentration camps in Arab states being refused freedom of movement and citzenship? Feel free to look through my posting history, I have already debunked the myths you are spouting when umar posted them.
Hamas was a creation of Mossad and shin bet. A counterweight to the PLO now it has blown back in their face. if you can't get that through your head then I cannot help you. Have Palestinians been mistreated in neighboring Arab countries? of course. I'm not here to carry the flags for the "Arabs" I'm here to point out the abuses that Israel has created and how they have been oppressing the Palestinian people for over 65 years. The only reason the Palestine are a destitute, stateless and brutalized people is because of Israel. Sure they have been treated by dirt by surrounding Arab states that is well known hell these Arab states generally treat their own citizens like dirt! So what sort of treatment do you think they will give foreign refugees who many Arab governments might see as a threat in many ways. These same Arab governments you often like to cite are often cuddly with the United States and have bent over to Israel often over the past 20 years! So yea I'm not surprised they have treated the Palestinians like shit they are just like Israel birds of the same feather fly together. And if you want to talk about concentration camps the entire Gaza Strip is an open air concentration camp. Funny how you summarily dismissed all the factual crimes Israel created because it doesn't fit your narrative.
SMH the only reason is because of Israel? Obviously not. This is a tired argument around here that has been proven time and again with facts by me. Read my very long history of posts on this topic to get a clue about what is happening and has happened in the region.
We will have to agree to disagree here my friend. Our stances and viewpoints are irreconcilable. However I do respect your thoughts and ideas even if I strongly disagree with them.
All wars lead to the deaths of the innocent, all leaders are butchers. In the beginning of WWII The English bombed German civilians while the Americans were very against doing the same and focused on military and industrial targets, but eventually they ended up killing more civilians than anyone else. That's the inevitability of the reality in war... (ESPECIALLY when one of the belligerents strategy is to coerce the other into killing they're own civilians.) But at the end which butcher would you have wanted ruling? Hitler or Churchill Hirohito or Roosevelt Taliban or Karzai and the NA (America) Saddam or Talibani (America) Arafat (who robbed, extorted and manipulated his own people) or Sharon (who is part of a government that holds you accountable for you actions) The US, Britain, Israel, etc participate in action that "by definition" are crimes against humanity and terrorism, but at the end of the day we are part of the world where people, relatively, live freely, speak their minds, can by a home, can educate their children in any way they choose, wear whatever they want and express themselves however they want, can form new ways of thinking and progress intellectually and creatively. Modern Islamism and the countries that adopt it dont do any of that, call that racist or biggoted or what you will but i don't see silicon valley in the Kandahar province or the acceptance of openly Atheist residents in Karachi, like there is in Jerusalem. I wish it were but it isn't.
Unless you're one of those unfortunate Arabs who are kicked out of their house at gunpoint by the IDF and have their house torn to the ground, only for a new one to be built so someone of the preferred race can come in. I mean, I guess you are able to live free of housekeeping duties in that situation.
No, but I guess that's what matters most and not the fact that Israel in a bloodthirsty manner have killed thousands of civilians through their use of indiscriminate bombings, full frontal land assaults and invasions, heavy handed use of checkpoints, land grabbing, draconian indefinite use of detention, forcible population removals, war crimes committed against Palestinian civilians (Jenin), use of phosphorus gas and napalm in their bombing runs a humanitarian blockade on Gaza? If we're calling the ones who are trying to get a better future, terrorists, and avoiding these facts I mentioned, caused by a government who is literally breaking every basic human right in the world, we should give terrorism a new definition...
Agreed, we each have our own viewpoints and I also respect your side of this struggle. For me I have stated numerous times in the past that the first step would be to just declare the West Bank and Gaza as the new nation of Palestine. And that in doing so Israel should remove all checkpoints and any settlements located in the area would become part of Palestine and any Israelis living there become citizens of Palestine.
Can you imgaine how Israel would behave if they weren't surrounded by genocidal nations whose stated intention is to destroy the entire concept of their nation and drive them into the sea using any means necessary? Since nobody wants to accept Israel as a Jewish nation, can we declare that there are no arab nations, or Islamic nations or any similar nations? ya know, to be consistent. BTW white phosphorus is used by every nation that creates illumination or smoke screens. Do a little research instead of spouting off favorite talking points.
That's not the point, the point is how the Israeli government is basically violating every possible human right and making the lives of so many Palestinians in their own state so miserable. A true pariah state. Would you accept the US as a Jewish nation if Europe claimed it back and gave it to the Jews?