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Discussion in 'International News' started by JBigjake, Nov 20, 2012.
Yes, a soldier and a civilian (a bedouin) killed with 140+ rockets during this "cease fire."
I guess Hamas wants IDF to invade once again
Wonderful and civilized folks...
I can see a peace treaty out of the corner of my eye
An example of a leaflet:
Has ANY other country faced with 1000s of rockets done something like this?
Rip to the civilian. But yeah, good riddance to the soldier.
You forgot to scream Allah Akhbar!
I think akhbar means news lol
Learn something new every day. Thanks
You know one thing i have wondered about in this thread, was in regards to the notion of "roof knocking"', "leaflets" etc in order to warn civilians about incoming airstrikes. Dont you then also alert and warn the militants? Doesnt make much sense
Exactly. In many cases Israel is interested in destroying the infrastructure, weapons cashe, etc so they only would focus on targeted assasinations after.
Wasn't sure where to cut the quote.
Would that be znn?
Almost stuck an "only" into "the ones"!
That's only because you're too late. Look at a map of Poland in 1939, compared with 1946. Russia showed up, knocked on Poland's door, shoved 10 million Poles across the country to the north & west sides, where they knocked on the doors of Germans & shoved millions of them into remaining Germany. Russia annexed eastern Poland and filled it with Russians & Belorussians.
BTW, German-speaking Austrians left behind in the newer countries of eastern Europe paid a similar price. After the depredations of the Nazis under the Austrian-born Hitler, millions of ethnic Germans were forced from their homes in Rumania & Bulgaria.
"The movement of Germans involved a total of at least 12 million people ... from the former eastern territories of Germany acquired by Poland and the Soviet Union (about 7 million) and from Czechoslovakia (about 3 million). ... post-war expulsions in Central and Eastern Europe ... displaced more than twenty million people in total."
I think those who are talking about the ineffectiveness of the Hamas rockets are largely correct. Whether due to the Iron Dome or otherwise, these rockets have failed to provide a sufficient deterrent to Israeli actions that are killing scores of Palestinian civilians. However, this conflict does provide us clues as to the capabilities of Israel's short range rocket and missile defenses and will better enable Hamas to devise strategies for acquiring better and more accurate systems. The good thing about the systems they are relying on right now is that they are very cheap and cost less than the systems that are fired to intercept them. Indeed, it might be a good idea for Hamas to try to spend all of Israel's anti-rocket missiles using the current stockpiles of cheap rockets before acquiring and using better systems to hit at Israel when the Iron Dome is already spent and before it has been replenished.
Which brings me to 2 other points.
First, Gaza is under an Israeli imposed blockade which means they can't get an open supply of weapons from anyone. Even the systems which are allegedly supplied to them from outside are apparently delivered to them in small packages and are assembled by Hamas itself. To simply cry about the Palestinian casualties without doing something to relieve the blockade on Gaza and allowing Hamas to be properly armed gets us no where. Maybe that will soothe some people's conscious but it won't prevent the continuous massacres and acts of aggression by Israel. On the other hand, if the Palestinians could be armed, the dynamics would change dramatically. This would not be a one-sided fight and Israel would then have to tailor its policies and actions in a way that would not only substantially decrease the chance of future repetitions of such crimes by Israel but also might see appropriate compromises by them to allow for a proper settlement down the line.
Second, I am not sure a ceasefire would be in Hamas' best interests at this moment and the fact that the Israelis have rejected the ceasefire proposals might be a blessing in disguise. While the wanton acts of murder by Israel under the guise of hunting for Hamas' rockets does achieve its objective of terrorizing Palestinian civilians and killing many of them, putting pressure on Hamas to seek a ceasefire, the fact is that if the Palestinians are not willing to pay the price, they should not be fighting Israel at all. Otherwise, if they are going to fight, they should be prepared to go all the way and pay the ultimate price and not run for a ceasefire before they have achieved their objectives. Even if Israel sends troops and manages to massacre, not hundreds, but thousands of Palestinians, the story of Israel's massacres and crimes will remain for generations and one day that story will prove much stronger than any of the weapons Israel is employing. In the meantime, every effort must be made by all those who have any interest in the plight of the Palestinians, starting with the new leaders in Egypt whose ideological brethren are ruling Gaza, to make sure Hamas and the Palestinians are properly armed. Let that happen, and we will see Israel crumble. Run around for a ceasefire and the kind of things that these countries which follow the lead of the US and the West do, and they will have to live in a region which is essentially ruled by Israel in concert with outsiders. A region in which the crimes of Israel will go unpunished and its repetition will go undeterred.
Here are Israel's casualties from the Lebanon war in 2006:
Israeli military KIA: 119
Israeli civilian deaths: 43
In other words, there was almost a 3-1 ratio of military casualties compared to civilian casualties. Even in terms of wounded, the number of Israeli military wounded in action was 1,244 while wounded civilians were reported to be around the same, which counting even people with nosebleeds was tallied at 1,384 Israeli wounded civilians in that war. (Seriously wounded were around 33 and those suffering from moderate wounds were around 66, the rest suffering light wounds with another 2,700+ Israelis treated for shock and anxiety).
By contrast, the majority of casualties suffered on the Lebanese side were civilian casualties.
When all is said and done, we can tally the military and civilian casualties from each side from the present conflict as well. We will notice that Hamas, with its rudimentary systems, will nonetheless manage a better ratio of military to civilian deaths than Israel! And that is not by accident. In the Lebanese war, it was Israel's deliberate tactic to terrorize Lebanese civilians in order to weaken support for Hezbollah and undermine its political position in Lebanon. And Israel is largely following the same script with respect to Hamas: it wants to break the will to resist and undermine Hamas' position politically, by waging terrorism against civilian Palestinians. Never mind that tactic backfired in 2006 as it relates to Hezbollah and will backfire again as it relates to Hamas!
IM, you do understand that the ONLY reason Hamas, Fatah IJ, and other terrorist scum still exist is because the odds are such that IDF can only use a small of their capabilities. Your proposal of "properly" arming these factions would only make things that much worse and IDF will not hold back and the international community will have to zip their mouths and allow Israel to respond accordingly. And if you think Egypt would help somehow this situation, you are crazier than I thought.
I'm glad IM posted what he did....b/c he exposed himself to be exactly what we all know about the Muslim world. They don't give a shit about the Palestinians and don't mind more deaths. Thank you IM for your typical message of hate. You couldn't have done a better job to portray the typical attitude towards Palestinians than you did with your post. Bravo!
Hmmmm, dead Jews...
I'm not sure anything about this is clear.
Just on that specific point, it's important to remember the significance of the continued Israeli settlement building program in all this. So whilst they might have initially stolen the occupied territories they're effectively 'stealing' them again with each brick laid on top of another. That's why I said the Israelis should make it clear that anyone who builds there is doing so at their own risk because they, (the Israeli government), isn't going to help them. Of course, they're actually doing the complete opposite
An interesting read from The Independent about Gideon Levy, an Israeli who spent time visiting the occupied territories, (or 'disputed territories' if you prefer), until the Israeli government made it illegal for him to visit them.
How exactly isn't it clear? Did you read the posts I made where I put in links to support this statement? Something else of note, during 2012 PRIOR to the Israeli offensive, hamas fired over 750 rockets into Israel.
Apparently the bus has some special military value right? And the reaction from hamas after an attack on a civlian bus? Celebration. I eagerly await all the condemnation of this attack from the pro-hamas people around here.
Oh and as for hamas willing to work for a peace, that twitter statement puts it all in a nutshell. They are staying true to their hateful charter and have no plans to ever accept Israel. Makes it kinda difficult to forge a peace with an enemy who will never accept your right to exist...
Did anyone else see the footage of hamas dragging a body through the streets from a motorcycle?
Such nice people, can't imagine why Israel can't find a peaceful solution with them....