Israel/Palestine in the News, Part III

Discussion in 'International News' started by JBigjake, Mar 24, 2011.

  1. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

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    I begin Part III as I did Part II:
    "Perhaps we can all hope for peace in the land sacred to three major religions ..."
    and remind all that this thread should be limited to current news about Israel and Palestine, as well as rational, calm comments about events there.
    I hope everyone has fully vented their spleens in the previous thread, and hope the mods can prevent this thread from flaming out, at least for one or two thousand posts.


  2. JBigjake

    JBigjake Member+

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    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42228970/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/
    Fortunately, one one person has died.
    "the absence of any peace initiative could spark a new Palestinian uprising. More than 500 Israeli civilians died in 140 Palestinian suicide bomb attacks from 2000 to 2007. More than 4,500 Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces in the same period."
  3. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator Staff Member

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    It's like a bad sequel. :D
  4. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator Staff Member

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    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/03/23/we_now_return_to_our_regularly_scheduled_conflict


    Hamas and Israel are likely to go to war again. Personally, I don't think Israel has much to gain from another attack on Gaza. They will temporarily diminish Hamas' capability to attack Israel, but in a couple of years they will be right back where they are now. Meanwhile, they will assuredly kill a bunch of civilians along with Hamas fighters, which only makes Israel more unpopular and secures Hamas' base of support.

    Not that this will ever happen, as evidenced by some people's unwillingness to even take the most basic observation as anything but a direct insult, but the best way to deal with these issues is a stiff upper lip as the Brits did in Northern Ireland. Yes, it is hard, and you don't get the satisfaction of killing a bunch of random people in revenge, but if you want to win in the end, that is the way to do it. If either the Israelis or the Palestinians put that strategy into effect, they'd give themselves a huge advantage.

    Here is an idea Palestine. Don't blow up random civilians. It hurts your case, ruins your public image and nobody feels sorry for you. Take a lesson from the Buddhist monks of southeast Asia or Mohamed Bouazizi. If you really want to kill yourself, do self immolation. Instead of making YOUR side look bad, it makes the other side look bad. Look at how bad X is treating Y, he light himself on fire! Victory

    Israel, here is an idea for you. Take it on the chin. Yeah, it's not pleasant, but the more you bomb Gaza, the more they fire back at you. Clearly bombing the place into the ground hasn't stopped anybody from rocketing your cities. There is no military solution. Your attacks on Gaza only make you look bad and don't give you any security. So why not try to win public opinion. If Hamas is the only one firing and killing people, it's not going to be long before they start to lose the propaganda battle. Hamas wants you to attack, it is at its best when it plays the role of resistance fighter. If you want to help Hamas, grow it, strengthen it, then by all means, play into their hands and start bombing away.

    I've got nothing in this battle, so it's just a helpful suggestion. If you both enjoy killing yourselves so much, by all means continue. (just please don't drag us in somehow). However, if you want to try and figure out a way to live in peace, maybe take a note from the Brits and take one on the chin.


    On a side note. They way I always know I'm right on these issues, or at least close to it, both sides accuse me of being pro the side they don't like.
    1 person likes this.


  5. Iranianfootie

    Iranianfootie BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    I'll summarize the Arab-Israeli conflict in three words: War, Timeout, Repeat.

    In the past (until 1973), Israel faced conventional wars with conventional states. Now, it faces unconventional wars where there are high rates of civilian casualties in order for Israel to "win" the wars. Real Corona, the US is already dragged in. The US can't get out of it even if it wanted to. The assistant to Secretary Powell said as much...during the Cold War, Israel was a strategic asset but post-Cold War, Israel is a strategic liability but since the relationship has become ideological (much like Iran's relationship with Hezbollah), they couldn't get out of it they wanted to. I disagree that Israel is a strategic liability. I actually think Israel is still a strategic asset (just not to the same extent that it was under the Cold War). The US provides diplomatic, economic and significant military aid to Israel so you can't say "I don't want to be dragged into it".

    <win public opinion>

    - That will be very difficult. IF the prevailing public opinion is Israel is an illegitimate state that was established to serve as a Western colony as a bulwark against Islam, then there is nothing Israel can do to win public opinion. If public opinion is "hey, Israel has a right to defend itself from rocket attacks like any other country but the response is disproportionate" (whatever that means), then, yes, winning public opinion is critical.

    I completely agree with your first paragraph.

    But I mostly agree with your sentiments other than the "win public opinon" paragraph which I think is important in these types of unconventional wars but from what I know, public opinion on the Arab street is viciously anti-Israel to the point of being anti-Semitic.
  6. yasik19

    yasik19 Moderator Staff Member

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    Another war with Hamas would be totally stupid. Hamas is trying to divert the attention from the (hopefully) secular movements in the arab countries, b/c they know they won't survive if those movements gain popularity. So they are provoking Israel.

    I really hope Israel just develops more sophisticated air-defenses and not occupy Gaza again.
  7. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator Staff Member

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    Lets theorize for a bit, and try to read into the tea leaves.


    Lets say Egypt turns out to be a relatively stable and open democracy. They will no longer need a scapegoat or an outlet for their trouble and anger at home. Less Egyptians will be joining militant groups to go blow **** up around the world. Egypt will look at Israel much differently than Syria say for example. If Hamas is blowing people up, and Israel sits it out, doesn't retaliate, what do you think the response of public opinion in Egypt will be? In Syria it won't matter much, but in a democratic Egypt you have the potential for people to come to see Hamas as the problem. Indeed as many Palestinians are doing right now. If however, Israel goes into Gaza and flattens the place like a few years ago, kills women and children and leaves the place a mess, how will that color Egyptian foreign policy?

    Depending on how these democracy movements work out in the next year, you might see more Egypts. Or conversely you might see more autocratic states looking for a scapegoat. Still, it's hard to drum up anger and venom from your people when you have less and less to feed them. Some will argue that these guys will always find something and indeed they might. But that's not really good reason to give them free and unlimited ammunition.

    That doesn't even make mention of the rest of the world's opinion, which is also important.

    It would be one thing if an Israeli invasion of Gaza would actually do something. Like you know cripple Hamas or secure Israel, but we all know it won't.
  8. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly

    But I fear the current Israeli government might also want a conflict. I hope I'm wrong, because it would be bad for everybody involved except a few special interests.
  9. Iranianfootie

    Iranianfootie BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    I mostly agree yaski.....although I am doubtful that these movements are completely secular. Although Hamas has an electoral mandate from the people in Gaza and thus probably more legitimate in the eyes of Gazas than Mubarek's Egypt was to Egyptians, Qaddafi in LIbya, etc.... but imo, Israel will NOT be able to politically survive another war in the region. This is another problem with Israel's "mow the grass" military strategy relative to the US "Powell Doctrine". The US takes down the root cause of the conflict (ie. the regime)...Israel does targeted airstrikes against various targets. So even though this avoids lengthy occupations like the US in Iraq/Afghanistan, it also means that Israel will continously be at war.

    I like the more sophisticated air-defenses and also the security wall (while controversial) are good steps.
  10. odessit19

    odessit19 Member

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    Public opinion on Israel wll stay the same for MANY people and as much as many of you can disagree with it, it is because it is a JEWISH nation.

    Take it on a chin approach? Land for peace approach? Has that really worked in the past or just postponed the inevitable? Try convincing the population who is constantly under fire/mortar attack and worse if bus/cafe bombings begin to take it on a chin...Not to mention Gaza withdraw and how that lost public support there over the past few years...

    I agree with the war on Hamas would be stupid UNLESS IDF can disable them so much that PA in the West Bank and its people see clearly that the ONLY way to go is by NOT supporting a terrorist regime.
  11. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    No, this is untrue. And it implies that proponents of the Palestinian cause are against Jews, and not israeli actions.

    If anyone posting in this thread is anti-semitic, you need to name them.
  12. odessit19

    odessit19 Member

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    Iron Dome is fully operational, but IDF does not want to roll it out yet for some reason. If Israel can protect its citizens from Kassam, Grad, Katusha, etc fire, build security barrier where it's still required can help, but borders need to be finalized as well.
  13. odessit19

    odessit19 Member

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    Yes, IT IS very true. No one needs to go further than see UN's and International reaction to Israel compared to EVERYONE else who would, did and does worse things that Israel can ever do.

    I am sure Daniel Pearl was an Israeli citizen, not an American JEW :rolleyes:
    I bet Hamas has constant lunch dates with regular Jews, not Israelis and I am sure those myriad imams who preach that Koran says to kill all Jews and how Jews come from pigs and monkeys really only mean Israelis.

    Don't tell me what I need to do.
  14. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator Staff Member

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    You've proven repeatedly in the past that you can't.
  15. Umar

    Umar Member+

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    For every racist Palestinian I can show you a racist israeli. Your continual attempts to paint people as anti-semites are pathetic. As i've said before, Jewish people are my spiritual cousins, but what the israeli nation does as a collective should be condemned. If you keep slandering the proponents of the Palestinian cause, I'll keep calling you out on it.
  16. odessit19

    odessit19 Member

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    You mean Israel by you, right? Also, it's possible, just not the way it's been done.
  17. odessit19

    odessit19 Member

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    Nice job in moving goal-posts now that you totally ate your words. Keep doing whatever the hell you want, the facts and the truth will be said though.
  18. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes
  19. Iranianfootie

    Iranianfootie BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    There are basically two lines of thoughts in Israel right. One camp says that all the problems Israel faces are a result of the occupation (this is the Labor and Kadima line). The other samp says that Israel's enemies are hostile and leaving would only invite more hostility. The first camp had significant support in Israel from the early 1990s until 2006 (withdrawls from the WB, Lebanon and Gaza). Hezbollah's unprovoked attack from Lebanon into Israel in 2006 undermined the argument that withdrawl led to security with a similar situation in Gaza (withdrawl leading to a lack of security...this has been the Likud line).
  20. odessit19

    odessit19 Member

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    But the question is, where did Oslo accords lead to or Camp David Accords? Do you really believe it's all about land for peace and would ANY other nation after being repeatedly attacked give back the land that was captured from defensive wars? I assume giving all of the WB is just a start, since Gaza has been returned already. Then Jerusalem, then refugees, etc...
  21. Iranianfootie

    Iranianfootie BigSoccer Yellow Card

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    I agree that borders need to be finalized. This is the thing...Netanyahu has DONE nothing in his two terms as PM (so far)....and he seems like the type of guy that wants a peace to hold but also (like most politicains) he wants a legacy. If the current situation continues, he will be a footnote in Israeli history...especially compared to the Begins, the Golda Meirs, Ben Gurions, etc. So I'm guessing one of these to help cement his legacy: 1) peace deal with the PA OR 2) attack on Iran nuclear facilities
  22. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator Staff Member

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    You simply can't fight a terrorist insurgency with a military solution, it rarely works. Russia tried to let Chechnya be, but when it destabilize the region they invaded. That invasion lead to death and destruction and it only emboldened and strengthened the rebel groups. Then Russia lead a second attack on Chechnya that made what Israel does look like handing out flowers and candy in Gaza. They literally flattened the entire republic, killed scores of people, and...... the rebel group came back, emboldened with new recruits.

    You have to have a political solution. Military solutions only feed and strengthen these sorts of broad based insurgency groups. If Israel were dealing with only a small scattered group of crazy anarchists, they could probably just arrest everybody and go home. But they are literally fighting a war against a group of people who have nowhere to go and unless Israel wants to kill all of them, they'll have to eventually find a political solution.
  23. odessit19

    odessit19 Member

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    I agree, but when and what does the OTHER side do in order for Israel to say to its people, let's give this another chance? Just recently, Gaza, that worked out well.
    There has got to be a compromise, like NO MORE rockets from Gaza, no more bombings, no more attacks period, otherwise, if any history has showed, Israelis will just get the the hand that offers food, bitten off, figuratively speaking.
  24. odessit19

    odessit19 Member

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  25. Real Corona

    Real Corona Moderator Staff Member

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    You have to stop with the settlements, (not going to happen but it's what they'd want) and make a legitimate peace deal with Fatah in the West Bank, which certainly they seem desperate for. Once the West Bank stabilizes, the people of Gaza, who are already trying of Hamas provocations, will turn towards a more stable force. But Israel has to actually let Fatah take over the West Bank completely, otherwise you leave the Palestinians with no hope and the only recourse that many see is violent action.

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