Yes I heard about Moreno and Lawton ... however they lacked of "goals stats" to back their greatness in that department ... Anyhow, I don;t believe they had scored even HALF (number) of headers thatPele did -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Spencer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sándor_Kocsis I think these above two can give Pele a good run in terms of heading ability.
in season 1975/76 and 1976/77 combinated klaus fischer had 22 goals with headers in bundesliga alone...horst hrubesch same seasons in only 48 bundesliga games played 20 goals with headers .. seriously nobody can say final how many headers a certain player from the past has scored careerwise in competive matches....
great finding ... Agree with you thatwe are unsure of players; stats in header. I remember I read in Pele's bio that he scored >150headers but howmany in big games and competitive games, are yet to confirm!
The amount of goals scored with the head was not my point; besides there is no way to confirm how many were scored in that regard. The point was the level of athletic skill and technique of some of the players that I mentioned - which was considered unparalleled, or at least unsurpassed before and even after Pele had kicked a football.
Here's some of it I found in the Spanish newspapers: It says: "For the English, after Pele and Cruyff, Maradona!" It was May of 1980. And here's Pele saying in May of 1980 that Maradona could be his successor: How things have changed! It seems that he was already being mentioned next to those type of names by the end of 1978, even before the YWC. I found this article in Mundo Deportivo, where it says: He’s not Di Stefano or Pele, but he’s very close.” Below he's with Beckenbauer in that pre-YWC friendly in 1978. Another article in Mundo Deportivo, dated 29 December 1981, states that Maradona and Rummenigge are the two most valued football players on the planet, and that the world sees Maradona as the “white Pele”.
And here's him at Boca Jrs. when he is regarded as the best in the world and compared to Pele That was a English article translated in Spanish regarding how Arsenal wanted to buy him.
How did you find the Mundo Deportivo papers? Do you know the background story behind the pre Youth World Cup friendlies? Who arranged that? The Cosmos were a big name but Argentinos Juniors weren't of course. I can see that the YWC established his name but it is interesting that already some prestigious friendlies were arranged before the YWC. I'll tell you a little story: Ajax tried in the 1960s to arrange friendlies with Manchester United and Bayern Munich but those declined... Manchester City was the replacement for United.
Yes, Rummenigge is fame was at that time at his peak. The German NT was seen as almost invincible and went into 1982WC as one of the major favorites, together with the equally 'invincible' Brazil. And Rummenigge was seen as the major star, he was directly involved (goals+assists) in 60-70% of the NT goals during qualifying IIRC (anyhow involved in a large percentage of the goals). He was surely the most applauded forward of Europe at that time and esp. his level of athleticism including his powerful and accurate shots (also difficult shots) were seen as something extraordinary. He also made explosive headers at times and that also made the headlines - the sheer power of those headers was seen as something out of this world. Argentina was a tier below those two but nevertheless among the top five favorites and Maradona was arguably an important reason for this, but also of course because they were the reigning champion and the Cup was played in a Spanish speaking country. In sum: it is not surprising that Rummenigge and Maradona are mentioned in the same breath as that time frame.
I got them through a Spanish contact. That first encounter with Beckenbauer and the NY Cosmos was on November 3, 1978. It was the Argentinian Youth NT, preparing itself for the YWC qualifiers in January. The match was played in Tucuman, Argentina. Menotti wanted to test his men with good competition and AFA arranged this meeting. By that stage Maradona was already a big name in Argentinean football. The other meeting was in 1980 between Argentinos Juniors and NY Cosmos. But by then Maradona’s image was blown up and the club was looking to cash in using his image by touring the globe.
The earliest instance I can find of Cruijff being compared with Pelé is in 1969 after the decider in Paris where the French media made that comparison and also Otto Gloria of Benfica said to a question from a journalist about 'how good he is' "There is only one Pelé but if an white Pelé exists, he might be it." Gloria, as noted in the report I made, also called him a "ball meastro with South American flavor" in the preview. Earlier examples do not exist although some made compliments such as the Spain NT coach in 1966 who said that he was of "World Cup level" and Real Madrid coach Munoz who also made various complimentary remarks in 1967. It is also reflected in the Ballon d'Or rankings of course. In 1967 only the Dutch representative voted for him (1 point), in 1968 only the Dutch and Belgian representative voted for him (2 points). It is also a factor that he was domestically introduced at a slow pace. Between 1964 and 1966 they saved him on various occasions - to not overheat him but also because they thought he was too young. And when he started to develop frequent injuries from late 1967 onward also the doubts started about whether he had lost abilities, most notably his quick footwork. Telling is also the following: Maradona was with 16 years the youngest Argentina NT debuting player ever in 1977. Cruijff could have been the second youngest post-war debuting player in March 1966 (or even November 1965 when he was on the stand-by list). But he was already 18 years old at that period of time. The youngest post-war debuting player was Giesen with 18 years and 79 days, the youngest ever was Kolff with 17 years and 74 days in 1911. Earliest comparison with Pelé in case of Zico was made in 1975 - that is at least what I can find.
I was thinking: when did these types of comparisons through the media start to take place in football? And when did these terms such as “The King” or “ The Greatest of all-time” commence? Well, I looked through old newspapers/magazines to find out what was being said, and I started to encounter this phenomenon around the 1960s. I could not find it before then, but I couldn’t rule it out either. If it did exist before, it never resonated to such an effect. What was this phenomenon? Was it a political one? Perhaps at first it was. But then it sold, so it became also an economical one. The media are masters in their propaganda-campaigns – the basic rules of marketing: give it a catchy title, greatest or king; no it needs a CAPITAL letter, like a brand-name – like Aspirin or Tylenol – if you’re going to sell it. So, Greatest or King. Important: Put a “The” in front of it to suggest there was only ONE Greatest or ONE King. People were suckered into this propaganda and became what some historians would term: “conformists” that swim with the tide. Before the 1960s, there were always great players, but as far as I know, none of them received such a show-bill termed “The King” or “The Greatest”. This was perhaps the era that propelled a generation after another to follow such pursuit. Everything started to fall into place. You get the drift, and the rest was history!
I know one thing for sure: in the early 70s the Dutch media rarely claimed with absolute certainty that Cruijff was 'the' best player of Europe. Maybe that is also related to then ingrained Calvinistic culture, the tendency to downplay things. By the way, Pelé had in the 1960s also competition from others, most notably Eusebio. The idea that he was unanimously, universally and consistently viewed as a level above all others throughout the whole 1960s is false IMO. Before 1966WC Eusebio received just as much coverage in the papers as Pelé. Maybe also because of an European bias but nevertheless. And Gerson was a superstar too, whose "left foot is maybe more sophisticated as Pelé his right". [which pays tribute to the widely held belief that left-footers possess something special, something creative] Of course, Pelé is very much the defining player of the 1960s but that doesn't mean that he was in every year a stratum above all others.
Maybe some are forgotten as a result. I saw some 1960s lists who placed Sindelar at #1 of most accomplished European player ever, even above Puskas. Others here have posted that too. It also struck me that concepts as 'the best' were avoided. They talked about 'the most accomplished' or 'most influential', but maybe that is culturally ingrained, dunno. I do know however that Sindelar has fallen from his throne somehow. That does not happen by accidence. Maybe as a result of the fact that he lived in the pre-marketing era.
Yes, I’m well aware of that. The media usually presented us with the story that the ‘50s belonged to Di Stefano, the ‘60s to Pele, the ‘70s to Cruyff and the ‘80s to Maradona.
Talkingof the pre-WC58 era, many great names were there but blame on the MEDIA on WC as the only battlefield for them to show off. Zizinho, Puskas, Kopa, Di Stefano Leonidas Didi ... all failed to win WC - Well Zizinho, Leonidas did shine but again blame on (low tech) media at times - besides Meazza (thansk to Nazi) Varella Schiaffino, Kocsis, Ademir... ... then until the young Pele showed up at WC58 unexpectedly but amazingly. Also the pair Puskas + Di Stefano started impress the world (especially Europe) with their winning streak in Euro cups ... Hence Zizinho, Leonidas, Kopa Didi were to become autimatic "underated" per se ... Sinderclair was highly rated at times (by some pros) but not worldwide a la Messi/CR7 now.
I found an article in the magazine of El Grafico with both Rummenigge and Maradona, dated Jan. 6, 1981. It clearly indicated that these two were the most talked about players on the planet at that moment. Here's a photo shot with both: It says: "the world talks about them" "The two best footballers of America and Europe" And here Rummenigge picks his top 5 in the world: Maradona's top 5: And here Menotti says that both of them are the best in the world:
Before (disappointing) euro80 had L'Equipe three names in their mind as stars of the tournament. In no particular order it were Ruud Krol, Kevin Keegan and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge.
Here's that 1980 meeting: And this is what Beckenbauer said: "Maradona is in the top 3 in the world with Rummenigge and Keegan" "He's the best youngest player in the world" There is also the comparison with Pele.
As you said, Beckenbauer has said a lot of things. The opinion of Rummenigge is more interesting because at that time he also admitted in interviews that football was not as entertaining any more and at a low point. He also said during the euro80 tournament that the general play was not well. Rummenigge was his contemporary peer as well, although five years older. It is interesting that Rummenigge is often lowly rated in all-time lists. One can point at various reasons for this but he was for sure one of the best rated of his era, for whatever reason. Maybe he is overly punished for playing in the wrong era. For example: an article I have says that Bayern was booed during their championship winning game in 1980. Rummenigge had a solo run & goal in that game from 30 meters distance. "The power and pace is impressive" the reporter said. Unfortunately no highlight on youtube. Cruijff compared the original Ronaldo once with Rummenigge, something which I did not understand at that time.