Well, I already said in previous post that Zico was sometimes overlooked. I cited a preview that said that some Europeans had still doubts about Zico. But in this interview with Argentina NT coach Menotti of 31 March 1982 they talk about "the inevitable comparison between Maradona and Zico." They literally use the word 'inevitable'. http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/03/31/pagina-2/1086387/pdf.html Anyway, in general I agree (as indicated) that it was not a matter of "Zico vs Maradona" with no other contenders involved. Here Maradona himself mentions Keegan, Rummenigge and Zico http://hemeroteca-paginas.mundodeportivo.com./EMD01/HEM/1982/03/09/MD19820309-019.pdf And here, May 1982, Zico and Maradona are mentioned as the primary 'aces' on the market for Italian clubs (with Rummenigge - IMO incorrectly - not mentioned). http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/04/30/pagina-17/1082281/pdf.html?search=zico maradona
Sure. His status quickly raised when he came to Italy but he was actually as good in the years before. He simply had the disadvantage to play in a second tier and with a second tier NT. We discussed it several times before. It could also be that outside France experts saw some weaknesses in Platini's game. For example, after the Italy vs France friendly game (february 78) during which Platini scored two free-kicks goals vs Zoff (the first one was disallowed however), Italian journalists from La Stampa wrote that despite his obvious qualities he was physically weak, too soft on the field, easily relatively to mark (it is true that Tardelli dominated him in this game) and not enough reliable defensively. Here's the game highlights with his two famous free-kicks : Here's the article : http://www.archiviolastampa.it/comp...17/articleid,1082_01_1978_0034_0018_15626329/ Curiously these weaknesses were not really noticed in France. In fact in january 1983 Hidalgo said to La Stampa quite the opposite by stating that Platini could do everything on the field, including hard tackles and tough defense and I think he was right : even if Platini disliked making the defensive job, he did it nevertheless. The numerous videos you and me posted here are evidences of it. Platini's game certainly improved between 1978 and 1982 and himself became more mature as a player in the meantime but I don't think he has ever been a 'soft' and lazy player including in his early days. Lastly, the fact he was said to be relatively easy to mark in this La Stampa article is quite weird : from his early days with Nancy, he was on the opposite feared for his ability to beat defenders in one vs one situations thanks to his elusiveness and quick side-step. That's something former Saint-Etienne and France captain Jean-Michel Larqué said. By the way when France met Italy again in 1982 prior to the WC with Platini dominating Tardelli this time there were no more such critics.
Very nice links Puck, and Babaorum No disrespect to Rummenigge and Platini, but I always said at the time period: 78-83 Maradona and Zico were reagrded as the two BEST (without crown). It was like 96-97 of Ronaldo and Zidane. Year 1984 (0r 1998 for Zidane) was the year Platini got absolute CROWN (over a Zico nearly passed his best, and a not fit Maradona at Barca) Here I am not talking because of ballon dor wining, but purely "pro point of view" Rummenigge was just a bit lower, not exactly on same breadth of those 3 names BTW
This are the average ratings of Napoli during their 1988/1989 UEFA Cup campaign, based on La Stampa reports (I'd like to see them for Gazzetta or Guerin Sportivo). Careca 6,77 (11) Maradona 6,71 (12) Francini 6,50 (11) Ferrara 6,46 (12) Carnevale 6,44 (8) Renica 6,33 (12) De Napoli 6,28 (9) Fusi 6,27 (11) Giuliani 6,25 (12) Crippa 6,25 (10) Alemao 6,19 (8) Romano 6,17 (3) Corradini 5,96 (12) Carannante 5,80 (4) Minimum: 2 rated matches Details: Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Maradona 1988/1989 vs PAOK (1:0 win, 1:1 draw) First leg: 1 goal (PK) - grade: 6,5 Second leg: 1 assist - grade 7,0 vs Leipzig (1:1 draw, 2:0 win) First leg: 0 goals - grade: 6,5 Second leg: 1 assist - grade: 6,5 vs Bordeaux (0:1 win, 0:0 draw) First leg: 0 goals - grade: 6,5 Second leg: 0 goals - grade: 6,0 vs Juventus (2:0 loss, 3:0 win) First leg: 0 goals - grade: 7,0 Second leg: 1 goal (PK) - grade: 6,0 vs Bayern Munich (2:0 win, 2:2 draw) First leg: 2 assists - grade: 7,0 Second leg: 2 assists - grade: 8,0 vs Stuttgart (2:1 win, 3:3 draw) First leg: 1 goal (PK), 1 assist - grade: 6,5 Second leg: 2 assists - grade: 7,0 Total 1988/1989 UEFA Cup campaign: 12 games, 3 goals (3PK), 9 assists
You mean between his Nancy and Saint-Etienne days ? I don't think he improved his individual technique ((ball-control, dribbling, shooting etc) because what he did with the ball in his feet in 1982 (and later on), he already did it in 1977. On the other hand his mental strenght and tactical knowledge improved in Saint-Etienne : by playing big games more frequently (with France as well) he learnt to handle them better and to be more consistent, whereas he was perhaps a bit tactically 'naive' in his Nancy days (see how Tardelli dominated him in 78 whereas it was completely the opposite way in 82). All this is something Platini said himself. Saint-Etienne is the place he became a true leader on and off the pitch, as well as a great team player (whereas in Nancy he was perhaps more a soloist than an orchestrator). That's not something he learnt with Juve : he had already this in his package before. Now in Juve he certainly continued to improve tactically and also physically : he became stronger and gained some stamina (but perhaps he lost a bit of his pace there).
Great info. I just kinda discovered this rep thingie. I repped you too for this. Even if it is not related to the topic of the thread, would you happen to have the average ratings of Milan for that season's European Cup? Im trying to compare van Basten and Careca's overall performances in the 1988-89 season.
That is a good question. I will find it out. Both had indeed a similar role in their successful European campaign. Van Basten was topscorer of 1988-89 European Cup with 10 goals (1PK) in 9 games. Careca was second in the topscorer list of the 1988-89 UEFA Cup campaign but #1 Gütschow (East-Germany) scored 3 of his seven from the spot while Careca scored 0 out of 6 from the spot. All of his 6 goals were funnily assisted by Maradona (some of them controversially though but that as sidenote). Dbscalcio (which averages ratings of publications) had Careca as third highest of his team (6.55) with Carnevale (6.61) and Maradona (6.60) as best rated players. Careca was second highest rated striker of Serie A after Carnevale. Van Basten was fifth highest rated striker of Serie A in that season (6.36). In his team Baresi (6.53), Gullit (6.39) and Rijkaard (6.38) were rated higher. Both scored an equal amount of goals in that season although Van Basten played three games more and needed 4PKs to score 19 goals (Careca 0 PK goals). I take those ratings with a pinch of salt though. In favor of Van Basten speaks that he won several accolades in that season and even ranked on top in 'overall' sportman of the year awards. In 1989 also a 'Super Ballon d'Or' was awarded to Di Stefano; all previous winners were present at the award ceremony. The likes of Platini and Di Stefano himself saw Van Basten as the best although many had question marks about his fitness level and injury proneness. But I'll look at the ratings.
So, this Dbscalcio is not showing the ratings given by a single unnamed publication, but calculating the average for the ratings given by several publications? Is that it?
Yes, it is an average of several publications. Just found that a Napoli fansite preferred the L'Unita ratings above the La Stampa ones. L'Unita had this as average ratings for 1988-89 UEFA Cup season: Ferrara 6,75 (12 UEFA Cup matches rated) Fusi 6,59 (11) Carnevale 6,44 (8) Renica 6,41 (12) Carannante 6,33 (6) Maradona 6,33 (12) Alemao 6,33 (9) Careca 6,32 (11) Giuliani 6,32 (11) Francini 6,27 (11) De Napoli 6,12 (8) Corradini 6,04 (12) Crippa 5,90 (10) http://www.napolitube.eu/web/show_video.asp?lang=EN&id=23&stagione=1988-1989&gruppo=Uefa CUP&squadra=Stoccarda - Napoli (3-3)&marcatori= That are some serious differences! But yes, dbscalcio takes the average of a handful magazines or so.
Just scroll down, there you see the newspaper article with ratings. You can find it for every UEFA Cup game on the site. Anyway, this is the average La Stampa rating for Milan their 1988-89 EC season: Rijkaard 7,17 (9 games rated) Ancelotti 7,12 (8) Donadoni 6,94 (9) Van Basten 6,94 (9) Baresi 6,93 (8) Virdis 6,58 (6) Gullit 6,57 (7) Costacurta 6,50 (4) Colombo 6,38 (9) Evani 6,30 (5) Tassotti 6,16 (9) F. Galli 6,16 (3) G. Galli 6,14 (7) Maldini 6,00 (7) Minimum: 3 games rated Note: goalkeeper G. Galli not rated in two matches due to lack of action (Red Star away; Bremen at home). Will also look for L'Unita, I expect some differences again. To refer back to your question: Van Basten had 10 goals (1PK), 2 assists in 9 games at the 1988-89 EC season.
As expected, a few differences for L'Unita (compared with La Stampa) L'Unita average ratings AC Milan 1988-89 European Cup season Baresi 7,12 Van Basten 6,94 Virdis 6,87 Donadoni 6,83 Rijkaard 6,83 Ancelotti 6,78 Gullit 6,50 Costacurta 6,50 Colombo 6,50 Maldini 6,42 G. Galli 6,37 Evani 6,30 F. Galli 6,25 Tassotti 6,16
OK, this will be my overview for their 1988-89 European season (overview for Serie A in post #508): To start with, both had two assists in their campaign. Van Basten one against Vitosha and a very important one against Red Star. Careca had two very important ones: one against Juventus (second leg; the winning goal in extra time) and the opening goal against Stuttgart (second leg; final). So; Van Basten: 10 goals (1PK), 2 assists, 9 games Careca: 6 goals (0PK), 2 assists, 12 games Van Basten had direct share in 12 of 19 goals scored by his team Careca had direct share in 8 of 18 goals scored by his team Note: all Careca goals assisted by Maradona La Stampa: Van Basten 6,94 - 4th of team Careca 6,77 - 1st of team L'Unita: Van Basten 6,94 - 2nd of team Careca 6,32 - 8th of team Careca + Maradona were together responsible for 14 of 18 Napoli goals (3 PK goals Maradona, 6 goals Careca, 2 assists Careca, 3 more assists by Maradona for other players than Careca).
Pfff, my bad. It was right there There will always be differences, since after all this ratings are assigned by what, one person (in each of the publications). And specially when we are talking few games, like this type of tournament. You change a 5 for a 6 or viceversa in a couple of games and the average changes quite a bit. Still I am surprised at the differences in the case of Napoli particularly...
1978 is questionable for both Zico and Maradona. Diego was well-known in Argentina, but not so much abroad. It was at the end of 1978 when the world began to discover him and started making comparisons with former greats. Zico was hyped up from the Brazilians from 1976 onwards but according to some info that I possess prior to WC78 his reputation had mixed reviews. It is in this period (76-77) where Zico reaches the heights of comparisons with Pele (mostly by the local people). But some dismissed it as heresy. However it is Pele himself that deduces that Zico will be the star of the tournament in 1978. http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1978/04/01/pagina-32/1024637/pdf.html?search=Zico And the reporters in this article wished for it to be true but had their doubts calling Zico a coward when they witnessed him in a match in Rio and suspecting and doubting his conditions when tightly marked with man to man markings. Zico responded "I don't know who could say that about me. All I can say is that I'll give my response in Argentina." Former Brazilian NT player Pereira also viewed on this by saying "Zico is a player of great qualities... But there is only one Pele..." http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1978/06/15/pagina-36/1400688/pdf.html?search=Zico Brian Glanville wrote on 17 June 1976: "The new "ace" Zico is still far from being a 2nd Pele." http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1976/06/04/pagina-28/1011789/pdf.html?search=Zico Then during WC78 it was Dirceu that stole some of the headlines for Brazil: http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1978/04/15/pagina-6/1034370/pdf.html?search=Zico And prior to WC78 former Brazilians Ademir and Vava gave their opinion on Brazil's situation and were asked which players were most fundamental and Ademir said: "Only Rivelino" Vava said: "Oscar was a nice revelation... I also like Batista... Edinho"(read full article). Cruyff, who covered the WC, said: "Brasil? They don't have the players of 1970" Also, prior to WC78 El Grafico previewed the tournament and stated this of Brazil: "They don't have the phenoms (Pele Gerson, Tostao) but is still a firm candidate" It said of Zico: "At a time he was called the white Pele. He could not revalidate that moto and today he's just another player inside the scratch. Great talent, although discontinuous" On the other hand great things were forecasted for Rensenbrink (considered by some to be the successor to Cruyff - which Rensenbrink dismissed - and one of the best in the world) and Platini regarded as the main man for France.
Great links and info Vegan. Let's sum up Zico's "popularity and fame" resume: From 76-78: Zico was like Messi now, a big "potential" to be on par or replacing Pele. 78-82: After his not so successful WC78 and copa79, no one called him a "new Pele" no more, but still is among the "best player" along with the emeging of young Maradona. 82-83: Zico was even lower than Maradona, Cruijff and Di Stefano (forget Pele). The reason I mentioned Messi name for they shared a huge talent especially at club at young age, but then not so successful with NT. Zico was a monster for Brazil (look at his goal stats) but unfortunately not so much at WC and copa level (only his WC82 was remarkable good 4goals+4ass/5games without the cup!) After 84-90: Maradona became absolute best and Platini as #2. Zico was NOT in the news anymore (especially followed the 2nd failure at WC86)
Everybody is entitled to make their own reading of what has been shared here. What I personally make of it is slightly different. First of all, I would not say that Zico was like Messi now. I understand you are not making a direct comparison here (as in Zico 76-78 was as good or at the same level as Messi is now), but still. I think Zico then was probably closer to what Neymar is now in terms of popularity. Then, my general impression after having been following this thread (I might not be right, I am not re-reading now the entire thread to find evidence) is that pretty much since Maradona gained international exposure (started with the 1979 youth tournament and continued with the European tour the following year) he was seen as a unique player and unsurpassed in talent and skill. Pretty much every time skill and ability was discussed Maradona took the most praise. Then of course, other players might have better seasons in certain years, winning trophies and such. I mean, was it Glanville that said after Platini had won the EURO with France (likely the finest moment of his career), that perhpas now the French was the best in the world, with all respect to Maradona? Perhaps? With all respect to Maradona? I was under the impression that the 1983-84 had been one of his least brilliant ones in Europe. Yet, right after the greatest achievement of his career, Platini might be the best... Glanville is just one person, but still.. Damn! And after that Zico indeed faded/started fading and Maradona moved to Napoli to put on outstanding performances right from the get go. Unfortunately, like it so often was the case throughout Maradona's career, such great performances were not always rewarded with titles.
First bold, now I don;t really quite get your point in return. All I meant was that, Zico was ONCE a huge talent at younger age that was ONCE comparable to Pele. (the same way Messi was in last couple of years 2006? In the past there quite many players with "hype" as new Pele or new Maradona, but I could say there were few serious cases that people really hoped that they will or would become like Pele Zico, Maradona, Ronaldo and Messi. Neymar would be the 4th case , yeah at least in 2010-11. what is your point that Zico was "more like" Neymar and what the difference with Messi back in 06? The only difference is Zico and Ronaldo are Brazilian and Maradona/Messi are Argentinian. They are all different type of players: Zico a CAM, Maradona FW/CAM and Messi Ronaldo Neymar are FW. Last bold, a bit correction (or may be I did not get your point) but Maradona WON BIG things with Napoli and probably those were the ONLY big Club level achievement in his career: 2 SerieA with a "minnow team" plus 1 UEFA cup. Note that the UEFA cup back in 80 and 90s were like a semifinal of UCL or even higher, not as bad as now (since 2000's rule of extension with more teams in UCL)
It is good to note that the three Maradona assists for other players came from set-piece situations: [at beginning] ! [2:15] [2:05] The 6 assists to Careca came in open play... It is safe to say that the interpersonal understanding between those two players was crucial in their campaign. Together responsible for 14 of 18 goals by Napoli. All 6 goals by Careca came from an Maradona-assist but all 6 open play assists by Maradona ended in a goal for Careca... The passer/creator and the scorer.
The average ratings of the Serie A in the 1988-89 season were: http://football-ratings.blogspot.it/2011/11/memory-lane-serie-1988-89.html The averages of AC Milan in the 1988-89 European Cup: http://football-ratings.blogspot.it/2012/03/milan-in-1988-89-european-cup.html