One clarification: Leo Beenhakker was manager of Zaragoza, not Celta. And a found another article this time in the Spanish newspaper of La Vanguardia: "Today Maradona is the best player in the world and the comparisons are absurd" - Juan Lozano (Real Madrid player) 29 June 1983 http://hemeroteca.lavanguardia.com/preview/1983/08/15/pagina-40/32975900/pdf.html?search=Maradona
It was a prestigious award handed out from Portugal (at least that's what the article says), but I don't know if it exists anymore. It seems, according to the article, that he had won it 4 years in a row. Note: it's possible that the award is Argentinian but was handed out to him in Portugal.
I found some more info of 1983 (this taken from the Madrid newspaper of ABC): "The best football player in the world left the clinic..." - This was after Maradona's career-threatening injury - 4 October 1983 http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1983/10/04/103.html I'll see to find more.
I disagree, I rather have Neymar and other players like Dede, Lucas, Fred etc all in our National League, it's the one I watch the most. I watch tottenham games and CL matches worth watching. So I went from watching Lucas all the time to never watching him at PSG. Personally I don't see a benefit for myself with him leaving. And Lucas got to PSG and is doing the exact same thing he was doing in Sao Paulo, so what developed in his game from going there?
You are as egoist as any die hard fan and I understand the feeling to keep those players at home However for his development sake, he MUST leave Brazil as soon as he can .. before it's too late (either WC14 failure would make a depression on his, or no other clubs big would want him) Lucas is a good player but not as special as Neymar. Plus it;s only a few months he plays there, even not a full starter. Let's wait and see how he will get improved. Look: 1- name me a few good players who did not go to Europe and still able to become "great one" ? (since last Zico, Socrates ,,, well even they did leave Brazil for a short while in mid 80's) = 0% chance if staying in Brazil 2- Another point is that NO WARANTY that every player going to Europe would get good treat and get well developed though (look at Denilson, Kerrinson, Anderson, Robinho and Diego ) but IF they would get into such mode, they would be a great one (like Romario, Ronaldo, Bebeto, Rivaldo Ronaldinho and Kaka) Look at those names, you can tell it's more or less 50% chance to become great if going to Europe, so WHY NOT?
Very good links to show your point Vegan, even though some comments are a bit exaggerated, but I had also agreed that Maradona's talent was like UNIQUE - never been seen before, nor after - to separate him with other greats (in same era like Zico, Platini, Socrates, Rummenigge, Gullit, Basten and later era in Zidane Ronaldo Romario Baggio Laudrup Ronaldiho Rivaldo and Messi) No wonder why his name was (always) right next to Pele despite of his career was much more down than up like Pele
There's not data to backup this argument of players develop in Europe. Especially since when our National team was successful all of the players there developed in our own league joined the National team for 1-3 years and THEN transferred to Europe as fully developed players. We had failures when we played only European players in the World Cup and didn't take our developing young starts, even if it was only to sit on the bench and have some experience during the WC. Lucas is not a full starter and neither was Seedorf when he came to Botafogo, all players need to get acclimated to the team, their tactics and especially to the culture of the place before they can start. Over the past 6-8 years none, because Brazil's economy was in the shambles while European Economy was booming, so they could afford to buy every player while the Brazilian teams couldn't keep any of theirs. This has changed it's something Europeans are having a hard time accepting. Lets fix these words when you say developed - you mean player was able to adjust right? because even in the 80s a lot of fully developed players went to Europe for a season to try it out and didn't work out at all. Going to say Casagrande wasn't developed enough to play in Europe when he only lasted half a season in Porto? Most of those players were fully developed when they went to Europe to make money, and a lot of players from Brazil during the past 6-8 years didn't go to Europe and went into Saudi Arabia instead, because it was just where the money is.
Yes I gave you the list of failed and succeeded as 50% chance to prove (since 90's) When player money and a bit more "popular" (famous if he plays for a big club) so he gotta ADAPT and SURVIVE! It's the NAME of the GAME, or so called Darwin's law!. People pay a player money is NOT for him to learn and have fun there, NO? Now if he can pass that test (means he can adapt and survive, automatically he got DEVELOPED) Well go back to my list, I only gave names that left Brazil at EARLY age - OK? Anyway it's OFF topic here!
Lets be a bit consistent here: you mentioned that Maradona was first in the El Grafico poll of 1981, second in 1982 (behind Zico) but in 1983 Argentinian magazine El Grafico also held a poll for best player in Europe. At December 1983 Platini was voted at first place, Falcao second and Zico third. Maradona wasn't mentioned. http://www.archiviolastampa.it/comp...21/articleid,1034_01_1983_0305_0021_14788182/
I'm glad you provided further information, since I don't have that El Grafico article - and this is the first time I've been informed about that. But it seems to make certain sense, since at that time (December) Maradona had been sidelined for months and perhaps that influenced the voting. In any event, being viewed as the best player in the world does not necessarily mean that that player should always merit a first place in every voting, considering that sometimes other players may have had stronger seasons. Take for example the case with Zico in 1981: he was more successful than Maradona, but that didn't change the perception of who was viewed as the premier player in the game heading into WC82. Anyway, you asked for my opinion of 1983 and that's what I found. And as I said before, if anyone has further info please provide it.
Yes, thanks for those links and your insight. Yes, there is no doubt that Maradona was hailed as the "Golden boy" but I think at some stages of his career others rivaled him in status and had (in my opinion) simply better seasons. At the most important aspects (the grand scheme of things) I agree with what you've said here about Zico vs Maradona. Though, as said, it speaks for him that Zico was always an immediate success. He was late in playing his first full season, thanks to physical innate problems, but was immediately the best player of Brazilian league. He was late in making his debut for Brazil (perhaps due to politics) but that was an immediate success, resulting in thousands of fan letters from all over the country and the manager declaring that he had never seen anyone better. He was late in moving to Europe but was an instant hit too, it took a short time for him to adapt. True, he was never seen as the "wonder boy" as a teenager but this above (and things mentioned in earlier posts) speaks for him. Platini is a slightly different matter.
Perhaps you noticed it but just to be clear Platini only refered to the free-kick area in this article.
Yes, that's why it says in Italian "Zico e lo specialista più forte" - clearly referring to a special strength in his game. But thanks for clarifying this for those that may not understand what he was stating.
I wanted to add something else about this which I remembered (and this applies not only to Maradona but to Zico as well): Around that time in 1982/83 both Maradona and Zico were very critical of Pele, since he was meddling with their reputation and fame. Maradona said after the WC: A "big mouth." "He (Pele) has to talk about me or Rummenigge in order for them to print his stories." Zico accused Pele of having "negatively interfered in his career" and "tried to have him dropped from the NT." So it comes to no surprise my feelings that I had then, as I have now after checking and reading through the newspaper articles that I possess from that time.
Too small of a sample size to be actual data, it doesn't even represent 1% of the number of player that went abroad. This is the kind of backwards thinking that has now been removed from most European top clubs, why would you pay 30 million euros for a player and not pay 40k per year to have a person help him adapt? Bad Business move by your part, you would be fired as my general manager because you just made me waste 30 million Euros. No it means he adapted.. Development would be something like he got better at the game, either kicks better, better control dribbling, stamina acceleration, passing etc. Things that most of them don't get better at after getting to Europe. Also when a player gets to his prime age in Europe, it doesn't mean he developed, it just means he's not a kid anymore making kid mistakes... Developed.. sure
OK - I'll provide/translate publicly available info and try to illustrate with those public sources how various topics were covered over here. Before 1982WC started some previews appeared in newspapers. This one highlights the following players: Maradona, Platini, Zico, Keegan, Rummenigge, Rossi. http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:010961093:mpeg21026:a0334 About Maradona it says: "It is possible to dispute who is the best player on the world but who is the most expensive one is beyond any doubt." It says that the ones who want to dethrone Argentina should nullify him but that West-Germany has shown consistently that it is a possible task to execute in various friendlies and the Mundialito. About Rummenigge it says: "After Maradona the most wanted player on earth" and mentions that Barcelona, Real Madrid and Juventus have offered big sums. Says he is maybe not very skilled and creative but in terms of "cold-bloodedness and efficiency he is better as anyone." About Zico it says that he is in South America seen as the equal of Maradona and Rummenigge but that in Europe still many doubters exist, according to them. It cites Van Hanegem who said as pundit: "I never saw something special about him." It says that 1982WC will be his last chance and it mentions his physical issues. Zico said in 1982 "since two years I really feel 100% fit." It mentions his physical issues - as 15 years old he had a weight of 37 kilograms. Remarkable is that the newspaper says without sensationalist undertone that Zico used anabolic steroids (and a diet based on vitamins) during his adolescence as part of his cure - they just mention it as if it is very normal to do. He is the best paid player in Brazil they say (which is correct, he was that since early 1976) but "is worth the money. He has already scored 500 goals in his career of which a small 50 in the national team." Apart from Rossi, who is mentioned because of his background story, all others are mentioned with great respect and seen as the elite players of the game. Other newspaper said before 1982WC: "Together with Maradona will Zico be the most interviewed and requested player at the World Cup" in Spain. http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:011205366:mpeg21014:a0230 This one mentions Zico, Platini, Maradona and Rummenigge as the elite talents of the world at that moment: http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:011010425:mpeg21:p029:a0439 I already provided the link where Zico says: "The best player of the world does not exist." http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:010622034:mpeg21013:a0282 Article says that he is "expected to battle with Rummenigge and Maradona for the crown of star of the tournament." He is introduced as one of the best, if not the best, forward players in the world. Interesting is that Pelé is quoted. Pelé said (in 1981 or 1982): "When I started my career appreciation and respect existed for a technical player. Currently, one trains for the elimination of technical players. Even before they receive the ball they are kicked down to the ground. Often in a intolerable way. Through the many pauses as a consequence of that, football has become less attractive to watch for the viewer." And Pelé talked about the Brazilian context! (when Zico moved to Italy he noticed that it was even a bit harsher like you mentioned... and in Spain it was in some respects even more violent like you said). Zico said about the 'best player of the world' title: "In the current game such superlatives are used very frequently. But to declare one player in 1982 as best player is absurd. It does not exist, at least I've never seen a player who masters all aspects of the game in a absolutely perfect manner. Only at the moment a player starts to unite all those aspects he is justified to be called a new Pelé. I believe though that in the modern conditions under which football is played a new 'super player' will not arise again." Also good to mention, in 1976 he said: "A new Pelé? Later I'd be much prouder if they start to talk about a new Zico. Until then it is not possible to compare me with Pelé." http://kranten.kb.nl/view/article/id/ddd:011199342:mpeg21023:a0356 Hope this is informative.... Also based on not public sources I have not the impression that Maradona was seen as a class better than Zico, at that particular moment in time, although it was quite often mentioned that Zico was already 29 years old at that stage of his career.
Btw, Platini was in 1977 mentioned in Barcelona circles as possible replacement for Cruijff. Montal, chairman of Barcelona said literally: "If Cruijff does not extend his contract then we will try to get Platini. At the moment he belongs among the best players in the world." Also Keegan was in the picture btw. New York Cosmos tried to get Platini (and Keegan) too but of course, Platini had no appetite in that adventure. Valencia, Internazionale, AC Milan and of course Juventus were in the race too - but Italian clubs were faced with foreigner restriction and could only offer conditional contracts. It was said that Platini had no appetite in a Spanish adventure (and certainly not Barcelona) because of the grim atmosphere. Furthermore, his club Nancy gained financial backing through a radio station and did not let him go that easily (and at that time it was rarer to leave very quickly at a 'young' - early 20s- age anyway). In some years between 1977 and 1982 his status received a hit and I think Vegan10 is right that he was sometimes put among the 'second tier' but at other moments that wasn't the case. At 1978WC manager Hidalgo compared him with Cruijff, which the press took over but Platini rejected the comparison... (But I believe Laudrup was the first one who was seen as a successor of Cruijff) Anyway, wanted to say that in different circumstances he had possibly ended up at a bigger club much earlier.
Thanks for those additional infos. It's pretty obvious Platini's status only raised when he came to Italy, but presumably not in his first months there, due to physical issues : in the La Stampa article Vegan posted Platini - when asked why he only scored 2 free-kicks the previous season (1982-83)- answered that the groin injury which he suffered since the weeks prior to the WC82 still affected him during his first months in Italy. Due to this injury he couldn't take his free-kicks as well as before. In a previous La Stampa article (february 1983 I think) Michel Hidalgo -when asked why Platini didn't seem to adapt well to the Serie A (his first months with Juve were indeed a bit difficult for him)- answered that it was not a tactical issue but rather the fact it spent several months for him to recover completely from his groin injury and that he was quite frustrated with it. However in another article (02-02-83) Platini stated that he had finally completely recovered from it and at the same time L'Equipe said that Platini was at last the boss of Juventus. The second half of the 1982-83 season was indeed much better for him.
It is a great thread and I got a lot from it indeed. But like I said before, if even when Zico's best years coincided with Maradona's most difficult ones, the Brazilian was not really ranked above the Argentine at the time, I do not see how Zico should have a higher overall status than Maradona regarding their entire careers. The question proposed by the thread starter has been thoroughly answered IMO.
That is correct, Agnelli also complained in November 1982 that the chemistry between Boniek and Platini was not optimal. He was later on much more satisfied. Platini scored 12 of his 16 league goals in the last 10 round of the 1982/1983 season (with 1PK in whole season). But as said before, his ratio for France before 1982 and ratio in European competitions before he joined Juventus - as well as other evidence - support the view that he already had a good level before he moved to Italy. 9 goals (1PK) in 16 games for ASSE in Europe - field goal ratio of 0.50 19 goals (5PK) in 36 games for Juventus in Europe - field goal ratio of 0.38 Before he went to Italy he played 38 games for the national team and scored 21 goals - 0.55 (but with many free kick goals though) After 1982WC he played a further 34 games and scored 20 goals - 0.58 (with less free kicks but all three PK goals were scored in this period) For league games the drop off wasn't big either. Nancy scored between 1975 and 1979 1.88 goals per game on average. Platini had a ratio of 0.62 over those four seasons. ASSE scored between 1979 and 1982 1.89 goals per game on average. Platini had a ratio of 0.56 over those three seasons. Juventus scored between 1982 and 1987 1.59 goals per game on average. Platini had a ratio of 0.46 over those five seasons. ---- That are the statistics. Like discussed earlier, in his early years (in 1977 for example) Platini was also known for his dribbling ability. Later on in his career that was less the case; it is overall not far-fetched to conclude that some abilities were better developed earlier in his career (and some not). But anyway, this thread is about Zico and my *personal* view regarding Zico is summarized in post #486 (and in defense of Zico it is noticeable that the statistical drop-off in that one season for Udinese wasn't big either).
Okay, so I found the 1981 year in El Grafico - but I don't have the results of 1980, but we know who was voted in first, second and third. Below is the reporters that voted (136 total). Above to the right is the top 3 collecting their awards in 1980. It is clear that 1981 was a tighter race than in 1980 and Zico came in first place in the Mundo newspaper while Maradona edged him in El Grafico.
Thanks. Guerin Sportivo had Zico at #1 for 1981, Maradona at #2 and Rummenigge at #3. Do you know the point totals for the El Mundo vote?
Thanks for the insight. Do you know his reasoning behind that? Anyway, this view could be shared with the German international Jurgen Grabowski (as previously mentioned in this thread) who was at both games when Argentina and Brazil faced West Germany in friendlies in 1982. His report was documented in “Kicker” magazine and mentioned in El Grafico. [Originally posted by me] Likewise, Menotti also drew his conclusions of the two: And prior to WC82 Spain's NT manager Santamaria did not even include neither Zico or Rummenigge in his starting team: Yes, as already addressed in this thread, Zico (and Rummenigge) received their fair share of praise. But at times perhaps one leaves with the impression that it is Rummenigge, not Zico, as Maradona’s main competitor for the world’s crown as the best heading into Spain ‘82. http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1981/12/22/pagina-38/1077298/pdf.html http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1980/07/19/pagina-21/1070924/pdf.html?search=maradona http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/01/19/pagina-21/1074074/pdf.html?search=rummenigge On the other hand Pele viewed it simply as Maradona and Zico: And in the Madrid newspaper it views it as Maradona vs Zico. http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1982/03/26/063.html And in other moments it seems it's Maradona by himself: Even Bobby Charlton stated in 23 April of 1982 that Maradona was the number 1 player in the world in his view. (Madrid ABC newspaper) http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1982/04/23/065.html The Czech manager also agreed saying "Rummenigge, Shuster, Zico... all good players, but Maradona is number 1" (14 May 1982) http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/07/04/pagina-44/1082409/pdf.html?search=zico Enzo Bearzot said “He’s the most extraordinary player in the world” – 29 June 1982 http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/06/26/pagina-13/1086268/pdf.html?search=Enzo And in the links below it confirms how he's viewed as the best (Note: Spanish articles): http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/sevilla/abc.sevilla/1982/06/27/097.html http://hemeroteca.abc.es/nav/Navigate.exe/hemeroteca/madrid/abc/1982/05/17/061.html http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/07/04/pagina-18/1084483/pdf.html?search=zico http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/07/04/pagina-25/1083922/pdf.html?search=zico http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/03/02/pagina-17/1447446/pdf.html In this one it sees him as the number 1 player entering WC82 above Rummenigge: http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/06/01/pagina-2/1084978/pdf.html Which makes the argument even more compelling. Two established world stars (Zico-Rummenigge - and you can throw Keegan into the mix if you want) well into their mid to late 20s – overshadowed by the ‘new kid on the block’ at only 19-20-21 years of age - who by acclamation has stolen the spotlight from them. It would seem illogical, but that’s the situation that was occurring at that time. Some would argue that that was quite an achievement, while others would say that it was a marketing tool in order to boost up the product. Even then, Rummenigge in 1981-82 would submit to the view that Maradona was above the rest. And he wasn’t the only notable player that would make that claim – Blochine http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1981/08/13/pagina-17/1074208/pdf.html Jean Marie Pfaff was another. So overall it would seem appropriate to accept the notion that it was Maradona’s reputation that was more on the line. He was hailed as the next greatest thing, the world’s most expensive footballer, widely viewed as the world’s greatest player, and he had to ratify those claims as to why he was receiving so much praise and recognition. In terms of career status, Zico has very little which points in his favor. By acclamation Maradona was the world’s greatest footballer of the 1980s – Zico never is mentioned.