Is Zico, not Maradona, the second best player?ever?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by Izzy9, Jul 19, 2011.

  1. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    So you are insinuating that Zico was widely regarded as the premier player in the game?

    That's new to me, since all the info that pertains to that era contradicts with that point of view. Even former Brazilian FIFA President Havelange stated in 1980 that Maradona was the best in the world. I have reputable newspaper sources from around the world that concur with this view. Even Pele mentions that Maradona could be his successor in 1980 and repeats in 1982 that Maradona could be the best. And the list goes on. Where does it ever mention Zico was the best player of his generation? He was viewed as one of the top 3 in the world heading into Spain '82 and when Rummenigge started to fade, his status became number 2. But Zico never had the world at his feet and was never considered the premier player in the game during the late 1970s and early 1980s.
     
  2. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, Zico and Maradona were hot commodities since 1979, and both were on the radar, but Zico was happy at Flamengo and Maradona preferred Barcelona since he considered it a better side than Juve.
     
  3. axxess mundi

    axxess mundi Member

    Feb 4, 2013
    Thanks JamesBH11 I was gonna say Milan.
     
  4. sheva07

    sheva07 Member

    Jul 5, 2012
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Both can Suck Ronaldo Fenomeno's Dick.They don't have half the skill Ronaldo did
    Time to admit the truth
    Ronaldo Fenomeno is the best player of all times
     
  5. Lucas...

    Lucas... Member+

    Dec 18, 2012
    Rummenigge also said (can not remember the exact year, I think it was in 1981 or 1982, and the words, I can look after) he preferred Maradona than Zico.
     
  6. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
  7. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I agree with most you say, but Rummeniegge cannot be compared with Zico or Maradona, he's just nowhere near their level. And who in their minds would place Keegan in the same breath as them?
     
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  8. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    But he was considered to be at that time (in fact he was regarded higher than Zico prior to WC82):
    http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1980/07/19/pagina-21/1070924/pdf.html?search=maradona
    http://hemeroteca.mundodeportivo.com/preview/1982/01/19/pagina-21/1074074/pdf.html?search=rummenigge
    During some point it was the media and men like Kubala.

    Note: articles of links are in Spanish.
     
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  9. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    He was considered by the Europeans because they will try anything before admitting superiority from SA players. They did the same for Platini vs Maradona, of course, WC86 settled that one nicely, although of course Platini is an all-time legend. Rummeniegge is nowhere near the same talent to be in serious contention.
     
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  10. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yet, it was those same Europeans that labeled a South American player the "next Pele" and the "greatest in the world" or in the words of Enzo Bearzot "A talent born every 50 years" and, it was the same Europeans that paid for a world record fee for his transfer. So that doesn't coincide with your view that "they will try anything before admitting superiority from SA players", but on the contrary, they were hailing him as a "King" before the King had come of age.
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I found the case you made in this thread quite convincing but how do you explain that Zico won so many plaudits during his time? Not only on his own continent but also magazines like Guerin Sportivo and Gazzetta elected him as the best player of the world, though not by a big margin.
    There is also various evidence available about the estimated transfer values around that time with Zico being up there with a young Maradona (or slightly behind due to advanced age).

    You're right that scepticism existed about how those players would do on the continent. In some way that turned out to be true of course. I.e. Maradona his national team ratio stayed more or less the same throughout his NT career (and climbed even a bit until 1990WC) while the ratio for his clubs dropped severely.
    13 goals in 34 games after 1982WC, 32 goals in 80 games after 1990WC and 34 in 91 for overall NT career.
    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/maradona-intl.html

    Do you know where Havelange in 1980 said that Maradona was the best?
     
  12. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    Whether Zico was better than Maradona depends very much of the method and priorities you chose. If you consider big titles decisive, there's no question at all that Maradona was better: he won the 1986 WC almost on his own and managed to do a miracle not even Sen Gennaro had accomplished before: to bring the Scudetto to Naples, and twice!

    But this is also a problem when rating Maradona, because he has become a true legend also in Europe, and legends are "untouchable". When you tell people who weren't there in the 80s that Diego actually had a very average season in 1986/87 and was far from the best player in Napoli that year, it seems you're committing the crime of lèse-majesté.

    Maradona had incredible tops but also very deep dips in his carreer, while Zico was very rarely disapointing - as far as I can understand. In Italy, Zico made an enormous impact despite having physical problems and no referee protection at all during his two seasons in Udinese. And without the magic he showed in Japan at the end of his carreer football probably wouldn't have become the #1 sport there, at least not so soon.
     
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  13. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    These were the market values of Maradona, Zico and some hundred other international stars in the winter of 1979/80, as estimated by Guerin Sportivo: football-ratings.blogspot.it/2013/01/player-market-value-33-years-ago.html
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Market value figures also exist for 1981 and 1982. In those years, when Zico was probably at his very peak of his career, the gap was even closer/non-existent despite hitting his thirties. But that are snapshots which do not justice for the total career of both players. Certain is that Zico was the highest paid player in Brazil since 1976, so he was well-valued before he started to amass continental-wide plaudits and worldwide plaudits.

    Do not want to suggest that I rate Zico over Maradona or downplaying the latter. However, a few caveats.

    Zico indeed said in 1982 that he regarded Maradona as more of an icon and better player (that were his words). But in the same year he also said: "the best player does not exist." I'm very sure about that.

    Pelé stated in 1980 that Maradona was his successor (he said the same about Zico in the 1977-1978 years). But in typical Pelé fashion, already in 1981 he started to say that there is "only one Pelé and one Beethoven." He added that players like Beckenbauer, Cruijff etc. were more complete and some more not so nice words. Before start of 1982WC he said very bluntly and without hesitation that it was Zico his Cup and that he was the best player of the world, "my cards are on Zico." And again a few not so nice words about Maradona.

    The matter whether Maradona won the World Cup solely on his own, and to what extent, has been investigated recently in various threads (incl. OPTA World Cup stats threads, All star teams threads, threads that look at ELO rating of opposition faced). But in summary: it is certain that without him Argentina had not won the event.

    I agree that looking at prizes won cannot settle such things. With one extra World Cup Zidane would still be no Maradona. With a World Cup Cruijff is for many still no Maradona.
    In this respect I think it is justified to make the observation that Zico won many of his prizes without controversy. Maradona his teams on the other hand both won and lost club prizes many times in a dubious way, with a lot of question marks (1988 scudetto, 1989 Uefa Cup, 1990 scudetto etc.).
    Prizes cannot settle this.

    Without downplaying Maradona, it is true that when Zico played for Udinese, although in an advanced role, his ratio did not receive a big hit. That is amazing. Maradona his ratio received a big hit on the other hand (though he played arguably a bit deeper in Europe). As said, his record for NT is more or less the same throughout the years (even better between 1982-1990) but that is not the case for the club part.

    Last comment I want to make is that some players can receive an sudden upgrade when they suddenly move to another league. Platini is a good example, who immediately shook the earth when he arrived. Zico too - an immediate success in Europe. An similar case is Uli Stielike; at the Bundesliga he did not receive stellar ratings or many 'team of the week' selections (in his last season, 1976/1977 only one team of the week selection - as example) but at the moment he started to play for Real Madrid he was an instant hit (and as defender regarded among the 10-20 most expensive players in the world to buy).
    Such a sudden and immediate change in status might signal that the narrative/preconceptions is not totally in sync. In other words, that is why one has to look at the total career of a player and notice things like "hey, that is peculiar, suddenly he is rated much higher or much lower at a new league and club [despite winning more/fewer notable prizes]". Or "hey, his ratio is more or less the same through-out his career".
    Speaking for myself, if I do that then I think Zico does not hold comparison. Though, for the eye he was maybe more pleasing to watch.
     
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  15. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I was talking more about the media. I guess hindsight being 20/20 it just looks absurd to regard Rummeniegge above Zico.

    I watched the entire 86-87 Calcio and I don't anyone who would be more instrumental than Maradona to bring Napoli the Scudetto. Even if individually Maradona did not reach the same heights as in 84-85, having won the WC with the greatest performance ever gave him the gravitas to bring the first-ever title to Naples. Before he could be the best player in the league yet not win it, now a league title had stop being a dream.

    PS: I thought baseball was #1 in Japan. Agree that Japan's rise in football, with exceptional players like Honda and Nakamura, is part of Zico's footballing legacy.
     
  16. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    The autumn of 1986 was very critical for Diego: he refused to recognise a son of his (that was a spitting image of him), and in the 1980s Italy that was indeed a big scandal that certainly influenced his concentration and behaviour. Napoli was kicked out of the UEFA Cup by Toulouse and Maradona declared in an interview short after that "I'm a man in crisis, from head to toe". In Italian press, the word crisi post-mondiale was used about his performances almost the entire season.

    I don't want to belittle Maradona's deeds in Napoli, but I think the right proportions should be used, and it is certainly possible that a key player has a great year when his team doesn't win titles and vice versa. In 1987/88 I remember Diego being magnificent, but then there was formidable opposition in Sacchi's first Milan. (Rumours are that Napoli players sold the scudetto to the illegal betting mafia of Campania: players are supposed to have celebrated losing the scudetto in a casino in Switzerland a few days after the 2-3 loss to Milan...)
     
  17. Krokko

    Krokko Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    Club:
    AIK Solna
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    About "market values". I think football is a sometimes naïve sport, and these numbers are there to prove it. British players have always been overvalued in these contexts and the same goes for some other cathegories of players. One if these is the kind of players that seem to adapt a "rock star behaviour" with enormous egos, collecting scandals and not recognized children. In the past that may have been considered a weakness, but with the society becoming more puerile and the tabloids and their headlines being every day more invasive, these players get a visibility that they wouldn't have had only for their footballistic acumen. One ex is Zlatan, who was the highest paid footballer on earth for a few years, despite being a living guarantee for any club - even the richest and most powerful - never to reach a CL final.

    Once again: I don't want to belittle Maradona who is and will always be one of my greatest heroes. But I do believe that his flamboyant personality made him much more of an icon than the shy and sad-looking Zico.
     
  18. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Zico was the best Brazilian player of his generation; he had international success at the club level and was already an established world star by 1981. I'm not disputing his recognition at some point or the other, or that some source gave him the edge at a certain point - which doesn't mean he was necessarily viewed as the better player but rather was viewed as having a stronger season - but in the big picture of things: there was the "wonder boy" who was compared to all top greats that came before: [​IMG]
    And then there was the German that was viewed greater in the eyes of many. But if someone wants to re-write history, like the British Soccer encyclopedia which states "Platini and Maradona during the early 1980s fought for the unofficial crown of the world's best" - which is false, since this only became a serious debate between the two in 1984 onwards - then true history will be distorted.

    Havelange mentioned this in the Mexican newspaper http://www.informador.com.mx/

    You have to search for it in Hemeroteca and look for the dates of 9 and 12 December 1980. (Unfortunately it seems their hemoroteca is not working at the moment - should try again later if you see that it doesn't function).


    The interesting part about it is when Maradona was receiving praise and acknowledgement, he was playing for a minnow club. But then one must take into account the impact that the Youth World Cup had in 1979 and the European friendlies of that same and one year later - but even then, the comparisons had been made since 1978:[​IMG]

    It is the common propaganda, but this type of world-wide praise was never reached with the likes of Zico, and even less at such an early age.
     
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  19. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    With Maradona being alleged to have been involved/forced or whatever you want to believe in tanking games when the team had the lead heading down the stretch. In any event, rumors suggested that his house was turned inside out and strict orders were forced upon him (and to others) to lose that season; Maradona himself sitting out the last two matches of the season (which they lost) for no apparent reason when he was neither suspended nor injured.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    They also met when Argentina (celebrating their World Cup) played against an official World XI.



    Maradona scored one of his finest NT goals and Zico had a goal+assist, and hence both were directly involved in all goals - World XI won with 1:2.

    [I read this comment now and I remembered it]
     
  21. Once

    Once Member+

    Apr 16, 2011
    If I am not mistaken, Tardelli kicked the crap out of Maradona in that game...
     
  22. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    It was after that game that Platini said Cruyff was the best footballer he ever saw, when interviewed by El Grafico, and it was Zico who said Maradona was the best prospect of Argentina at the moment.
     
  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I agree here with Vegan (also repeat this from last post) that Maradona at younger age was regarded as a "bigger potential" than Zico - he was once was in 76 but somehow was regarded as "FAILED' at WC82.
    So exactly from 78-81 a big debate between Zico and Maradona as who was the best player. Zico seemed to be the winner especially after his performance at Intercontinental cup against Liverpool.
    From 82-84: Most experienced people would put their cards on Maradona on two factors:
    - Maradona got his own flashy talent that was like "never been seen" before
    - Zico was overlooked for his copa79 and WC82 failure for Brazil

    Wc986 was become a FINAL NAIL to Maradona best status frame on the football wall.

    ================================================
    At that time 78-83: Not many "pros" would even put Platini and Rumennigge in to this mix bag of Zico and Maradona. However, Euro 84 changed Platini life forever .... while Zico once again was unlucky (injured) at WC86
     
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  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Tardelli received a second yellow in the 76th minute. Second half was seen as rough by both sides. Tardelli received both cards after a foul on Maradona but he made many more (not only on Maradona).

    Platini was btw substituted by Zico at half-time, one of the two subs in the match. This video on 0:28 has a snapshot of ratings, I think in an Argentinian magazine (maybe Grafico, layout looks similar).


    Platini started the match with #8, Zico replaced him at half-time with #14. Boniek and Zico had the highest rating according to that snapshot (8), Platini had the lowest one (4). Maradona a (6) as rating.

    Captain of official World XI team was Ruud Krol, which was over here seen as a huge honour for a player from a small nation. He played with #6 and received a 7 as grade according to the snapshot (after Boniek and Zico the highest of his team).

    The ratings I refer to align with the way the game was received in the press over here.
     
  25. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Yes, I have that edition. It's in that magazine that those quotes were taken.
     

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