If by Atlanta, you mean Kennesaw, then you're right. No, excruciatingly bad business practices killed WUSA. Everyone and god thought that league could make it, based on a tournament played 2 years before the launch of the league. The players did what they could. They played their hearts out, gave out tons of interviews and did so many grip and grins I'm surprised they had any time to sleep. The 99'ers owe no one an apology. If WPS fails, then it's their fault and theirs alone. They knew what they were getting into.
And for the record -- if it weren't for the 99'ers, we wouldn't even be here chatting about this right now.
I don't think he means THEY ruined it just more so maybe the air of "We dont' need any help. We can do this alone." that they may have created out of their naivety and high hopes for the league, that may have tarnished any chance of partnerships with say the MLS. There was a blog posted about a week ago on here, about the topic. I still don't hold them responsible. It was a combination of things. Most of it appears to be MC Hammer like in nature, too legit to quit. And things just fell off from there.
Narrr your right. If it were not for the 99' mob, questions about WPS and it's sustainblity wouldn't be around now, mostly because WUSA would likley still be here in WPS's place. Seriously though I know it's harsh on my end to blame girls who just wanted to play in a pro league of their own. And yes they shouldn't be having to think of much more than simply playing. I have felt for some time though that for all the empowered rhetoric, at no point did common sense come into peoples minds. If you can help set up a female league that can run through 100 million in 3 years, at what point do you also step in to ask where the money gets spent? Playing your heart out as a female athlete will only do so much when people don't value what you do. Problem was that Soccer as a sport in America has never been valued domestically to the extent WUSA tried to project it's manifesto. As nice as that manifesto sounded, taking all that money with such short term aims was plain foolish. WPS has Marta, the greatest talent the female game has ever seen, and yet she hardly generates anything close to the love Hamm got. Rational thought should have said playing your heart out type talent alone was never going to be enough to fill arenas they chose to play in, or open doors to notoriously male dominated sports media outlets. Does it have to take another top level U.S. crop of players to bring in the fans? I don't think so. I don't even think it mattered what level of ability the U.S. girls could produce to get the fans post 99', when what they really had that mattered was national fame and popularity. That level of Fame and popularity was big news back then, but at no point was there a genuine national love for the sport. If we were to think that talent alone would determine WPS success, right now it would be fine. If it's national fame and popularity at the levels of exposure 99' WWC produced, pro female soccer will have to wait maybe another 15 to 20 years before it has any hope of legitimate money making success. For me WPS can't even think small, because WUSA had to think so big.
I think all people like to watch her play, but not nearly as many embrace her. Perhaps because she's not a national product. I've noticed that some dislike her for what I feel is no reason other than being great. Idk, maybe people are still holding on to grudges from four years ago. But as the Beckham experiment should have prooved no one player (not even a foreign star) can turn a league here into a powerhouse. She brings a lot of credibility but it's not her job to carry the league, nor is it that of any star player. The true power lies in the fans. True fans, unfortunately there's just not enough of us at the moment.
Fact is WPS doesn't need Marta, I don't think casual potential WPS fan's recognise how good she really is. Most U.S. heads still believe 99' era Akers and the Hamm's were the better players . There's a serious disconnect with the present day WNT player to it's audience, so what difference would Marta make. In two months people will see just how much talent has played in WPS in it's three years, with many seeing Marta entertain for the first time. You just hope all the young U.S. female players out there come and see them in WPS when the tournament ends, giving owners the incentive to join for another year.
This wouldn't be real surprising. The Flash have done a first-class job putting the team together, but the marketing has been lagging until recently IMO. Even the website didn't get straightened out until recently. The other tricky aspect is this is a team that is basically operated out of Buffalo, and until recently all of their promo activities seemed to be in Buffalo, yet they play over an hour away in another city. I can't imagine masses of people traveling down the thruway from Buffalo, so gaining awareness in Rochester is key. There's a solid youth soccer base to cultivate too. Luckily, coverage has picked up here of late. The soccer camp looked like a hit and got lots of coverage. A co-worker mentioned hearing a radio ad, and that's the first time I've seen any promotion for them here. And newspaper coverage has picked up too. I could see there being a nice walk up if the weather cooperates, but I can't imagine there being much of a season ticket base. But, I could see the word spreading quickly. I watched the Atlanta game and thought it was a lot of fun, and I'm sure others will get excited about it as the word gets out.
and this leads to a question. everywhere i look, it's about season tickets. what is boston's season ticket base. i'm willing to bet it isn't much better than atlanta or even the 800 GP had. is it just boston has GREAT turnout on game day? even though cheap, i'd think season ticket packages are a hard sell for the wps but they can do well like jack did with "catch a game for this evening" crowds. i'm saying wny may have bad season ticket purchases but i think they will have attendance up there with boston this yr from game day purchases. i'm assuming it was the same with chicago and washington when they broke 4000 constantly. in other words since most attending are bring kids, they arent going to buy a season ticket package for a kid but they will make the bi-weekly or so purchase depending on the ability to make it a game or who the opponent and players are.
I am not privy to real numbers, so you may be right about Boston but I'd take that bet with you. I can say they have one of, if not the best total package in WPS. They did extensive homework in advance and designed their STH packages around what their potential customers wanted right out of the box, and have continued to be receptive and reactive to input on an ongoing basis. Unused ticket trade-ins, discounted parking packages, "bring-a-friend" coupons, liberal tailgating provisions, group sales seating restrictions, the cooperation with the Riptide, combined with reasonable STH prices, strong communications and an open-minded service-oriented front office make a season ticket purchase with them very attractive. For anyone who might want to go to more than 1 or 2 games, its a no-brainer in most cases. And they sell beer in the stadium. And they do a good job on game days even for the one-time purchasers, no one I know who has attended a game has said they wouldn't go back.
jeff at examiner said poor season tickets but i think the flash have such great packages that game - game is almost as good as season tickets. and they can serve beer also. http://www.womensprosoccer.com/Home/wny/tickets/tickets i dont think their season tickets are any indication of true turnout.
mls is more than successful! we're talking about soccer in america, and trying to figure out how wps can survive!! mls has money men willing to pay 40 million shekels just to get into a soccer league that already has 18 teams. not to speak of all the other millions they have to come up with just to start and run a team. the history of pro soccer in america says that that's success. wps wishes it had such epic failure!
Yes, WPS and fans like me certainly wish that people like Phil Anschutz would put a few million into the league when they've already put tens of millions into MLS. As I keep saying, the chief difference between MLS and WPS is that MLS has people willing to lose tens of millions on third-rate men's soccer, while WPS can't find people willing to lose millions on first-rate women's soccer..
jeff cooper didn't even want to lose 3M, is suing an investor for it so he gets all his money back. MLS is equal to Bundesliga II, might have a case for 2.5 rate.
even if it's 5th rate, it's a baby league and it has fans/paying customers. don't blame the money men. don't blame wps. first rate women's soccer simply doesn't have enough of us fans who like the game enough to pay to watch it. them's the facts.
But plenty men's teams all over the globe don't have the fan's to support them financially too. It's wrong to suggest only female teams struggle to generate income through it's fan base, as it's just not true. Women's soccer on the club level struggles with the (sometimes sexist) stigma of it being low end football, lacking any of the things associated to top tier sports. StarCityFan is right to suggest that the deep pockets owners show for the MLS get very shallow when it comes to the girls. Just look at how the SOL got dumped.
MLS didn't have enough fans to pay for itself - or even come remotely close - for many years, but that didn't deter Anschutz and Hunt. WPS could go for decades on what those two poured into MLS and will never get back.
Because even a third rate men's soccer league is a far bigger draw and financial prospect than a first rate women's soccer league. And the MLS owners were thinking many years ahead knowing these teams weren't going to be profitable for a number of years. They were willing to lose tens of millions now with the goal of reaping the rewards long-term since an American men's D1 league can be a huge business. As opposed to losing millions now for this so called first rate womens league and continuing to lose millions in the future. There just isn't a market for women's pro soccer at the level WPS and WUSA wanted. Beau Dure wrote an excellent book that details how MLS started, its growing pains, and where it is going. It will explain why the money is there for MLS and not for WPS or any other women's soccer league that will pop up. You should read it. But what does that have to do with MLS? MLS and its owners have nothing to do with WPS. Complaining about it isn't going to solve anything. Yeah, there aren't enough rich people willing to lose millions on women's soccer. And what are we gong to do about it? Nothing. Being jealous of MLS and its money men isn't going to solve anything. I'd compare it to the Championship which is slightly higher. And that is impressive for a 16 year old league with many teams operating with 1/4 of the budgets of those teams.
the rest of the globe is almost irrelevant here. we're talking about soccer in the u.s.a. here, for the most part your team has to be a viable business or the investors have to see the possibility of building a fan base to make it a viable business. more money men can see that possibility in the men's game. few see it in the women's game, and i, a huge supporter of women's soccer, agree with them. most of us here on this board, in fact, would agree that investing in women's pro soccer is a losing proposition. not necessarily in the u.s. here people know it's the best women's soccer in the world. they just don't want to pay to see it. again, don't blame them. see above. look, i want to see women's pro soccer. but i don't have the solution, and most people with know how don't either. my hope is in mls doing something like the nba does with the wnba. that's the only way i see this thing working out.
Sorry to say it, but with such low attendance numbers so far this season it's hard to imagine WPS being back next year
I agree that the market WUSA wanted was a bit too much too soon, but the rest is an absolute myth. You can count on two hands the amount of teams that generate millions through ticket sales, and they probably come from only 3 leagues. This myth that buying into a football club generates money is one reason why so many of these clubs are now in stupid amounts of debt. I know it's an extreme example, but things like the ESPN 30 for 30 doc 'The two Escobars' show how much having a sugar daddy is the only way many clubs achieve anything in less it's a huge institution. Other modern examples are clubs like Chelsea, Shakhtar, and even Inter, that without huge sums of private money wouldn't be doing jack based on there fan base. MLS owners may tell outsiders that soccer is a cash cow in waiting, but any fool will tell you half filled 30K seat stadiums brings in pennies compared to what global competition need just to make ends meat. When I mention MLS in relation to WPS it's because the USSF is so weak right now that there's no chance they would do anything in relation to a women's league. The fact that independently mega rich men don't want to lose a few million on a women's league is fine, It's the excuses for why they don't which is annoying at times. In 15 years that comment will be worth looking at again, as it's all about time right now. The modern nature of professionalism in the men's game is a very recent occurrence in the overall history of the game. Even now in 2010 the WC had a team in New Zealand that fielded ametuer status players. The girls will have to wait for their time of course, but the trends of steady growth with a professional nature are set to continue in my mind, and not disappear. Yes WPS is the most high profile league, but with all it's chopping and changing it's a bit hard to call it the best competition. With this in mind it's then harder to suggest WPS delivers the best level of play. Even though inferior to WPS, more paying fans can, and do, regularly turn out to see women's college soccer games. Is that because they think college soccer is the best level they can see in America? Right or wrong many college soccer fans probably don't even think WPS is worth the time and effort, mostly due to the solid foundation and backing of one level vs another. How can any pro league survive when nobody will give it the right help or time to develop.
nobody said that ticket sales will generate millions or make wps teams profitable. but ticket sales are representative of the fan following of a league. it helps determine if the league can earn sponsorships and tv contracts which in turn make the league a viable proposition. let me repeat. the rest of the world is almost irrelevant here. in the u.s.a., your sports team for the most part has to be a viable profit making business or else it's not likely to survive. you have to have a good enough game with enough fans that produce a good enough spectacle to earn you a tv contract and enough sponsors to make money at the sport. nobody said that either. we're just saying that in terms of the history of pro soccer in the u.s.a., mls is successful. they are not excuses. they are valid reasons. maybe you'd put your hard earned money into women's football, but even most reasonable businesswomen won't. that's not the point. we believe that it's the best and we still won't pay to go see it. that's the point. do you know why? it's because people are attached to their alma mater for life. they'll pay to see people throwing frisbees if the competition has their college name on it. and, btw, you just proved my point. the level of play has little to do with women's pro soccer problems. again, i'm a rabid women's pro soccer fan. i want this league to succeed. but i try to take a realistic, pragmatic approach. and when i do, i don't see any reason to expect that money men will want to put money into women's football.
So the half empty mega stadiums of the MLS early days convinced major sponsors to come into and stay with the league for 15 years? Stadium fan following in most all the male football leagues I see are actually terrible compared to the media time they get. Only Germany and England get major turnouts at all their various levels. Major TV deals avoid Germany though, while the EPL as a group and two major Spanish teams clean up. Fan's in seats seem to have little impact on the choice of where sponsors look to promote their stuff in the modern era. Wider sports media interest seems to pick it's favourites on things beyond the obvious. I'm going to be controversial here and say, do U.S. soccer fans really believe it's the best? I think WPS like MLS or any other American pro soccer league will now always suffer from typical U.S. domestic soccer self loathing. Without the WPS playing the international compitition that exists, the WNT represents the league. We can all see how great that looks WPS has International stars, and talks the game of world champions. The years since 99' though have left the WNT/potential WPS fans questioning the nations real standard of player. Even casual fans will recognise the U.S. no longer holds dominion over the female soccer landscape, with the U.S. players no longer recognised on levels of individual excellence like they used to be. U.S. fans expect their domestic leagues to always be the best, based on the strength of the domestic players. Even though WPS is the most high profile league in the world, No German's, with very few exciting U.S. internationals, while the most dominating player is a little Brazilian able to produce stuff on another plain of reality compared to the best the U.S. player pool has to offer, has left some fans second guessing everything. Outside the Hamm era people can see what's up. I don't think WPS should exist on a sugar daddy model. The route of survival is major sponsorships with decent media acceptance. Notice I say acceptance and not coverage. I always feel the wider media has still not come to terms with soccer's relevance within the American/global sports arena. Most media outlets view soccer as an annoying distant relative that every now and again comes around asking for attention, and then doesn't know when to leave. Until major American sports media outlets accept it's domestic based soccer leagues as valid platform for a serious pro sport, the girls will always struggle to get any love.
I'm not the one who brought up the comparisons with MLS. It's other people who brought MLS into this thread, talking about how wonderful and successful it is compared with WPS. I'm just pointing out that MLS "success" vs. WPS "failure" is all to do with the attitude of the respective owners toward losing money.
MLS got pulled into this because people think its' FULL ownership of the WPS would usher in a new era in women's soccer. No, it wouldn't. It would turn the WPS into W-League II, just like DC United is trying to pull off at the Plex. That's the argument at least from my end. MLS players can't cut it in B-I let alone B-II, had the good fortune of two billionaires to bank it threw the ruff times. That's not being jealous, that's fact. All I'm saying is give the WPS about 1/5th the coverage and TV deals that the MLS has, given the WPS has about 1/5-1/6 the audidence. Also, the WPS just has better quality of players, is a better game to watch, esp after the 1st goal is score. Goals or no goals, I fall asleep watching the MLS. Ok, I get excited by Henry in NY but I can do without Donavan. Really, he is considered the best or one of the best in the MLS but I'm not sure he could cut the travel squad for Santos FC. Anyway, no one hates the MLS and it's done good for its' time on earth.
No, it has to do with each leagues perceived future. If enough wealthy people felt there was a future market for women's pro soccer in this country, than they would also be wiling to lose millions. The MLS owners weren't dumping money into MLS for the hell it. Do you really think they lost all that money so Tony Meola had a place to play? And you can't bring up the sugar daddies from other countries since they are losing money for status. The MLS owners invested because they see a future. MLS is a success because it survived and is growing. The problem with women's soccer is that it's hard to convince enough rich people that there is any light at the end of the tunnel. All anyone sees is a money pit. And how can anyone dispute that given the facts? Um, no. People just want women's pro soccer to survive. They are not looking for any new era. And right now things look dire for WPS. Just look at the attendance. There probably won't be a WPS next year. So I am not sure what you are even talking about. Again, MLS has nothing to do with it. WPS is bound to its own fate. MLS is under no obligation to save WPS or women's pro soccer in general. And if MLS starts their own league, I hope it is run better than WPS and WUSA. I hope they bring the Washington Freedom back. The current model is broken. Something has to be fixed. Fact to who? To you? Because that is clearly not a fact, but an opinion. An opinion I feel is sadly misguided and shows a lack of knowledge about the American game. But you are entitled to it. Just as I am entitled to laugh at it. Yeah, and give MLS teams the budgets of Man U or Real Madrid and they would be the best clubs in the world. Well guess what? That isn't happening. Nor is WPS ever going to get MLS's coverage(which actually isn't much). So your point makes no sense. We are dealing with realities here. Stop with the excuses for WPS's failure. You don't have to bash or insult MLS, Landon Donovan, or its players to raise WPS up. But you are sadly going down this route.