Is it time to consider a team WITHOUT Altidore?

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by DCURFK, Dec 17, 2013.

  1. el americano

    el americano Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Jun 9, 2006
    San Francisco
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's lucky to be in the EPL at all, and it is possible to be a good player on a bad team. He just hasn't been a good player. If he keeps it up he'll get his move... to the Championship.
     
  2. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    for those not paying attention, it goes something like this:

    The USMNT goes as far as Jozy takes us. This is his team now.
     
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  3. ussoccer97531

    ussoccer97531 Member+

    Oct 12, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    You can't score goals when you don't get service. Jozy isn't a creator, so he needs service and he hasn't gotten it.
     
  4. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Keep some perspective: last season, in the Netherlands, Jozy was scoring just as much as Bacon.

    The defenses facing Jozy now in the EPL are 10 times better than what he had in front in the Eredivisie. I'd reiterate: in the Netherlands, Mike Magee would also be scoring left and right. Those teams focus on attacking, their defense is often a single guy left behind alone to face the counter.
     
  5. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Jozy is a proven international goal scorer. Nothing to do with Aron Johannson. Michael Bradley scored 856 goals in the Eredivisie. That's not to belittle AJ's half a season's worth of accomplishments in the league(yeah, i know he was ace in Denmark), but perspective may help.

    Again, I watched the Chelsea match. Jozy played very well for what he had to work with. He always had at least one and frequently 2 defenders plastered on his back when receiving aerials. Sunderlands play around the area was until the subs pretty horrific. Jozy rarely got the in dangerous position. Still he fought. He had a great sequence at the 62nd minute in which he fought through 2 defenders and got possession of the ball in the box.

    Sunderland may turn out to be an excellent situation development wise. With the NT he had Zusi, Dempsey, Fabian, Bradley, and Jones setting him up. At S'land he'll need to learn to be much more proactive in his reading of the game to get at the scraps on offer.
     
  6. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    lol.
     
  7. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    You may "lol" all you like but it's true, as anyone who watches the Dutch league knows.

    I'd wait until Bacon starts scoring in a league where they actually defend; or starts scoring for the NT against a rival that is defending, and not going all in attack, desperate to get an equalizer.

    Scoring in Holland or Denmark is not enough to guarantee anything at the World Cup level.

    The Dutch themselves know that, that's why they don't call the likes of Castaignos or Falkenburg or Promes to their NT. They may score plenty in the Eredivisie, but the Dutch themselves know better than trust them in the Euro quals or WC quals.
     
  8. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I'd settle for AJ doing a bit more at international level. Plenty of chances have been created for him.
     
  9. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    This service myth persists. Allow me to suggest a counterpoint.

    I was reading a review of the Stoke v Manures Cup match today and they wrote that Cameron sent in a beautiful cross that skimmed off the head of a Stokey whose name I forget and went off target. We know that Jozy has no aerial game. Do we want to read the same review of USA v Ghana or do we play Boyd or EJ who both have excellent scoring records off headers. There are serious questions raised in this thread.
     
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  10. TabLalas

    TabLalas Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    Jersey
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I would say this is more Michael Bradley's team but I hear what you're saying.
     
  11. MattXG

    MattXG Red Card

    May 17, 2010
    Maybe he'd be better off coming back to MLS and playing and gaining confidence?
     
  12. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Be honest with yourself (just an expression) and tell us if you don't think Aron has been more dogged todate with the USMNT in trying to create chances for himself. The WC will not be Dutch league. Mind, I feel Aron should play winger so I dont see him as a replacement for Jozy
     
  13. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    In that he's more similar to Dempsey than he is to Altidore.

    However, trying to play him as a CAM is misguided. Just as misguided as doing so with Dempsey. They can be second strikers, wide forwards, main strikers. Neither is fit to be the organizer of the attack, IMO. I can see Mix fulfilling that role, if needed. Although chances are the organizers will continue to play wide (Fabian and Donovan).
     
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  14. gunnerstahl

    gunnerstahl Member

    Sep 7, 2013
    The problem at Sunderland is that he is reading the game, but the passes he expects to land where they should (if it was a good pass) don't go there.

    Regardless it looks like he puts forth effort to pressure (runs at the ball) when he has no support and then when there is support he barely moves or follows through on movement when he anticipates loss of possession.

    He needs to fix that and use effort to pressure at the right times and keep his movement and readiness up throughout plays past the point of possession loss.
     
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  15. Sam Hamwich

    Sam Hamwich Member+

    Jul 11, 2006
    MB will be neutralized by JJ's nonsensical behavior on the pitch and his own penchant for getting caught out of position and/or getting muscled in transition.

    Because we will pack it in and play defensive football - See french friendly from last year - our goal opportunities and scoring will be nonexistent unless Jozy can manufacture a couple moments and goals.

    It doesnt help that FJ seems to be losing grace in Huffelpuffenheim.
     
  16. soccerusa517

    soccerusa517 Member+

    Jun 23, 2009
    Ohio
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We're talking about EJ starting over Jozy? Jozy made a shit choice and is in bad situation but damn.
     
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  17. usfootball20

    usfootball20 Member+

    May 15, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Surely, AJ won't bully defenders like Jozy often does, but I strongly disagree with the "needs to be facing goal" part. See Bosnia game. Facing away from goal, he flicked the ball around a defender to set up his own shot and also played the 1-2 with Kljestan which led to Jozy's 3rd. You don't have to be huge to hold the ball up. Having said all that, Jozy should start against top teams with either AJ in the old Dempsey LW role or as a super sub.
     
  18. freisland

    freisland Member+

    Jan 31, 2001
    While everyone, from the kid collecting bottles outside the stadium of lite to Jozy himself wishes he was scoring more, it is not uninteresting to look at the 2 times Jozy has put the ball in the net for S'land. He won a WWE wresting battle with Sagna. Sure the Frenchie is not 15 anymore, but if Jozy could more consistently win those 1 v 1 wrestling mataches (and he wins lots, to be fair) he would score more.

    The second was backing in on Terry, turning and hammering a left footed, quick release very opportunistic back to goal shot.

    If Jozy can replicate either of those moves (which were both against top team internationals - perhaps a tad past their prime, but no 17 year old pimple faced kid from Molde either.) in the WC, he's aces. If he can draw attention and set up LD/Demps/AJ/MB/FJ to score out of the midfield he's aces.

    And to be fair, Jozy team-defends very well these days when asked, which will not be a bad trait in this group.

    Jozy's a streaky scorer. Who cares about November. We should all pray he stays healthy until April, then turn on the gas.

    All said, AJ is and will continue to be a legitimate contender as partner or replacement. Some serious competition is always good and at some point JK will go with the hot hand.

    AJ could be Charlie 2.0 in the right situation as well.
     
  19. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    That's defective coaching. IMO, a coach worth his salt would have made Jones --and Bradley-- understand their role already, and how to fit it to each other, or would have benched one of the two for good.

    The opportunity-manufacturing guy for the USMNT for about a decade has been Donovan. Let's hope he still has some magic left in his bag of tricks.
     
  20. TabLalas

    TabLalas Member+

    Mar 29, 2007
    Jersey
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, people are getting out of control here.
     
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  21. TheyCallMeBruce

    TheyCallMeBruce Member+

    Jul 22, 2013
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    It's a little concerning that this thread keeps getting replies, when the initial premise is so monumentally stupid. And now I'm part of the problem.
     
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  22. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Well, we qualified for the hex by not calling up Jozy.

    A lot of people thought that was monumentally stupid. I'm guessing Jurgen will not want to be that unpopular again. What for, really...
     
  23. Ironkick14

    Ironkick14 Member+

    Sep 29, 2011
    Chicago, IL
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "We qualified for the Hex by not calling up Jozy..." Germany, Portugal, and Ghana are not El Salvador, Antigua and Barbuda, and Jamaica.
    Jozy is by far the best American forward. He's in a crappy situation at Sunderland, where he gets no service. Since you called that a myth, please force yourself to actually sit through a Sunderland game. They can't get him the ball. They are incapable of sending a ball to the striker's feet, the only way that the striker (whether it's Jozy or Fletcher) has a prayer of doing anything with it until his teammates get up field. On crosses, Sunderland rarely get a cross in undeflected, and when they do they rarely clear the first defender. Even their buildup is completely ineffective. They pass it from side to side along the back line, in to Ki, and back to a center back, before inevitably sending a prayer up to the lone forward, who's battling two EPL caliber centerbacks.

    As for the statement that Jozy has no aerial game, that is just untrue. He is not an elite aerial threat. He is not particularly good in the air given his size. But those statements are very different from saying he has no aerial game. He's scored a large enough number of headers that it is dishonest to act as if he can't score with his head, just to benefit your argument.
     
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  24. sweethome_bama

    Jul 21, 2013
    Orange County
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sunderland's midfield reminds me of a ball hog in basketball. There are better offensive options but that midfield ie Adam Johnson loves holding onto the ball until the defense takes it away.
     
  25. Suyuntuy

    Suyuntuy Member+

    Jul 16, 2007
    Vancouver, Canada
    Of course he has no aerial game in Sunderland. Fletcher doesn't, either. Impossible to have an aerial game when the crosses go five feet above your head.
     
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