Ok, then I will rephrase it: if an opposum could do it, how is it that Bayern have managed to win both titles (Bundesliga and DFB Pokal) only 6 times in their entire history (2010, 2008, 2003, 2000, 1986, 1969) - not counting the two times under Magath, of course.
Well, they don't win titles just for being Bayern. I was refering to the squad they had compared to the other teams at the time. In other seasons there were other strong contenders. But in 2005 at least Bayern were head and shoulders above everyone, and with a team largely build by Hitzfeld. Considering how different football is now compared to even 10 or 20 years ago, I wouldn't count on the situation being the same as today in 10 or 20 years time.
Magath did neither reach the semi-finals nor win the cup. He was fired before the Inter matches. Maybe he would have advanced against Inter like Rangnick did and a win in the cup final under against Duisburg would have been very likely. But that is speculation. Magath had parts of the team and parts of the fans against him. His transfer moves worsen Schalkes difficult economic situation. As a consequence he was fired before winning a title. That is why it is no success story. Don't get me wrong, he is a good coach. But at some of his stations it did not fit (Schalke is one of them (only IMO based on the points above)).
I would rather bet on the rise of clubs like Anschi Machatschkala than on Schalke which is run by morons and has a culture that is inimical to success.
But it were still his players that won it. And against Duisburg any coach could have won (against Inter probably too). The main reason Magath was fired was that he did not get along with the organized fans (or rather the bosses of the fan organizations) and the big wigs at Schalke, because he did not flatter their ego and because he is a straight talker and not a politician. The second reason was that upon hiring Magath, Schalke had set out the goal of winning the Bundesliga title. Otherwise, Magath would not have gone to Schalke. But, suddenly they got cold feet and decided they could not afford such high aims (they had lied about their financial situation in their talks with Magath), and that they needed a coach who would be satisfied with less. Magath would not have agreed to sell Neuer, for instance. The third reason was, that some disgruntled players felt encouraged by the dissent to turn on Magath. These were mostly players who wanted to leave the club anyway (Neuer, Farfan) or those Magath had confined to the bench. But without the attacks of the Schalke board on Magath, this player rebellion would never have happened. Magath actually did not spend too much. Most players he is criticized for came on a free transfer and were on a very small salary. Others could rather be regarded as an investment instead of costs, because their worth has not diminished and they can be sold anytime if the club feels that they need money (in this regard, excess players is like money in a bank). Anyway - he has not increased Schalke's debt but reduced it if you factor in the CL money.
You sure are confident in everything you say. Except you say so many things that no one can be certain about. 1) Did you forget Magath went behind the back of Schalke management by breaking the rules of the club on multiple occasions? He made several player extensions and transfers while not consulting Schalke management. Now the club cannot get rid of those worthless transfers who have no place on even the bench. Are you kidding me? These players are investments that "could be sold anytime" and are on "small salaries" ? How cheap was Annan? Schalke can't even sell him. They loan him to a Dutch side. Deac too, who they had to loan to a Romanian side b/c no one will buy him or his bloated salary. These players combined are like 10 million euros of just transfer fees. They barely played any minutes. Here's Magath's many other worthless transfers: Karimi, Plestan, Charisteas, Jendrisek, Hoogland, Deac, Annan, Metzelder, Jurado Yes, I'm lumping Metzelder (he has been horrific) and Jurado in. Jurado is being paid an absurd salary and is basically tied for largest transfer ever paid by the club. Both can barely make the bench. He openly disrespected the club's fans and management. He told them nothing and betrayed them with decisions that are still impacting the club this season and beyond. 2) He fired fan representatives and would not meet with fans. Any prior employee who was not his man he fired. He only put into places of any power his own puppets and alienated anyone who he could not remove (either legally or otherwise). He ran a dictatorship and extremely ran up the club's wages. I am not just talking about players, but the inflated salaries of his hand picked puppets. 3) No one is bigger than the club. Magath wanted and demanded complete control. He would have destroyed it and sent it into bankruptcy. Taking 2nd place one year and having good cup runs is not worth losing everything. He could have easily gotten the club relegated given their form too. No one is bigger than the club. 4) Magath would not have kept Neuer. At best he would have kept him this year and let him go on a free this summer. Unfortunately, b/c of how bad of a position financially Magath left the club, there was not much choice but to cash in on Neuer now. 5) Club management did not instigate the players into "revolting" against Magath. What a joke. Most players are sick and tired of Magath during the 2nd season. It's why he never lasts but 2 seasons anywhere. Farfan said he would rather break rocks in the summer time in Peru than continue under Magath. Not a great endorsement when someone would rather perform prison labor than continue as a football player. 6) Schalke lied about how much money they had? They got cold feet? What. They saw how Magath was making stupid transfers with the money they were giving him and stopped. He gave away the brilliant defense (Bordon, Westermann, Rafinha) that took them to 2nd and replaced it with a terrible defense that is the reason for the bad Bundesliga form with 5 losses to start the season. Any management would get cold feet at that. They'd be morons not to. 7) Magath reduced the club's debts? Where is your data for this. Please provide it. He did nothing. Tonnies and Peters helped the debt by issuing fan bonds to raise cash and refinancing parts of the club's loans. Magath squandered money and tried to sabotage Peters and Tonnies at every opportunity.
As I remember, Magath had the authority to do so. Not that I agree with Magath's transfers, but Scheisse management gave him the authority to act without consulting them. Magath wouldn't have moved there without it. You're rightfully skewering Magath here, but you also aren't always being fair. Annan cost 2.5M. Not that much. But I also don't forget that the reason they bought Annan was Magath's stupid treatment of Jermaine Jones...... Quite honestly, Annan did have problems with injuries last season. But where you are right is that they never should have had to get him in the first place. It was Magath being stubborn a-hole that caused it. This was one of his dumbest transfers...... You said "other worthless transfers" and then put Annan and Deac in there again. I agree on Karimi, Plestan, Hoogland, Deac and Annan. Charisteas was worth at least one victory for them last season, wasn't he? He was a free transfer and wasn't there very long. No one expected anything of Charisteas. To be fair, Jendrisek was signed before they signed Raul. Jendrisek was always going to be a backup. He didn't cost anything and they got 700,000 for him. Can't call that "worthless." I would agree that he paid far too much for Jurado. That part of it was very stupid. However, they did need that type of player. He could and should have done better for less. Again, not defending him, but let's be fair here. Dude, do you actually know what the word "betray" means?? I'm asking because I don't see where Magath "betrayed" anyone. He made bad and stupid decisions. That's not "betrayal!" "Betrayal" would have been selling Manuel Neuer to BVB (not that Neuer would have ever done that, just an example). "Betrayal" is Neuer deciding to go to Bayern at Scheisse's hour of need. What Magath did was stupid. But he didn't intentionally screw Scheisse. He didn't "betray" them man. What the hell are you talking about here?? Are you going to tell me you're suprised at that? Magath has done this everywhere he's gone save for Bayern! I am not saying it is right, but when you sell your soul to the devil, you have to know that it is going to be hot in hell! Again, you're not being very fair here. AND THEY GAVE IT TO HIM!!! He left Wolfsburg because they wouldn't give it to him. Scheisse did and they got what they got!! No one started bitching until the winning stopped! Again, you're being unfair here. He took 2nd place with a team that had no damned business finishing that high! It isn't as if he took a team of stars and finished second! It was mostly his work that got Scheisse to the CL semi-finals and that DFB Pokal win too. You say he could have easily gotten the club relegated. True. But the key word there is COULD!! He also COULD have righted the ship given the time and support! He might not have, but he COULD have. If we're going to use the word "COULD", let's use it for both sides of the story! This I agree with. However, you seem to be conveniently forgetting that the club gave him the authority to do the things he did. Then they tried to act like they were the victims when he "went mad." Please. Club management deserves some of the blame for what happened there too. This is the only part of your Neuer statement that is fully truthful. Magath would not have kept Neuer at Scheisse. NO ONE WOULD HAVE! This is where there's no way in hell you're being fair. Number one, the club was already in a precarious financial situation when Magath got there. He made it worse, but they knew that was coming. When they hired Magath, everyone knew Scheisse was going "all-or-nothing!" And it nearly paid off! Scheisse managment knew what they were doing when they hired him! When things started to go wrong, they played the victims and the fans bought it! Mostly because they hated Magath and for good reason!! Getting back to Neuer, he was never going to extend! He'd already made his personal deal with Bayern before Magath ever arrived! That was the worst kept secret in German football!! Scheisse was never, ever going to let Neuer go for nothing! He was getting sold after last season no matter what! This I agree with. The only places Magath had been where people weren't "sick of him" in year two are Stuttgart and Wolfsburg. He would have been more appreciated during his time at 1. FC Nürnberg, but they wouldn't guarantee his contract after denying him the money he wanted to buy more players. Something Scheisse 04 did not do! They gave him the authority he wanted and then tried to act as if they were the victims!! This, I agree with totally. They saw he was being stupid and moved in. The only thing I don't like about the situation from Scheisse managment's side is that they tried to act like victims once they did move to remove Magath. Other than that, they were right to remove Magath. I totally agree with that. But again, when recalling the situation, let's be fair and put the blame where it truly belongs. ON BOTH SIDES!! Stop right there!! Magath did not unilaterally make the decision to not extend Marcelo Bordon. Magath did not unilaterally make the decision to sell Rafinha. Hell, Scheisse had been trying to sell Rafinha for an inflated price since before Magath ever arrived and Rafinha wanted to leave before Magath was hired! And Scheisse management signed off on selling Westermann and replacing him with Metzelder! They might have done it because Magath said he could still win without them, but THEY STILL KNEW ABOUT IT! You write this as if Scheisse management had no choice! They did. THEY LET IT HAPPEN! Trying to blame Magath alone for all of this is just silly man! SCHEISSE MANAGEMENT DECIDED TO GAMBLE ON FELIX MAGATH AND THEY LOST!!! They weren't "tricked." They weren't "betrayed." THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE GETTING INTO!! THEY GAMBLED, LOST AND CUT THEIR LOSSES!! THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING! Agree on the Magath reduced the club's debts being bullshit. However, I also disagree with the Magath trying to sabotage management at every opportunity. If you can ask for proof, so can I. Just how did Magath do that?? Tonnies and Peters moved to cover their own asses and blame everything on Magath while Magath's popularity was at the low it got to. And it worked. People bought their bullshit. Magath tried to DEFEND HIMSELF!! He wasn't going to take being blamed for everything lying down! Felix Magath is indeed GUILTY of much of, if not most of the things you listed here. However, to try to blame Magath for everything and make it out as if Scheisse's managment never supported his actions is TOTAL BULLSHIT MAN!! They knew what he was doing. They knew and went with everything because they'd basically sold their souls to the devil in giving Magath total football control. And to their credit, when it began to go horribly wrong, they made the moves they had to make to get rid of Magath. But to sit here and act as if they were somehow tricked or "betrayed" (your word, not mine) is complete bullshit. They simply gambled on Magath and lost. To belittle the accomplishments Magath did have with Scheisse is also complete bullshit! No matter how it turned out in the end, they had still had success that was down to Magath, his methods and his actions. Nothing else. Yes, it is correct to say that Magath, his methods and his actions led to the end of that success too. That is true. But they wouldn't have had it without him either. In the end, they all deserve blame for what happened. They all deserve credit for what went right too. To say anything else is again, complete bullshit........
Magath was NOT given complete control. There were controls put into place where he had to have approval from management on any transfers over a certain amount. I believe it was 300,000, which at Schalke is most players. He also had to have approval for player extensions. He did not get management approval and bought players and extended player contracts. He ALSO awarded some of his player pets and behind the scenes personnel monetary bonuses from Schalke funds as a reward for reaching the UCL quarter finals. He did this without management approval, which was again required. There are countless examples. How else do you define corruption and betrayal? He spent money he had no right to. He exercised control he was not granted. He was able to do this by firing anyone who did not support his dictatorship and then he used them to perform these corrupt acts. There is a focking reason he was run out of town without paying the severance he was owed because Magath knew he would get flayed alive if he was taken to court or tried to fight for his severence b/c of all the criminal trash he pulled. As a disclaimer, Tonnies is also very much to blame. I will not say at all he was totally in the right of the whole mess. He let it get to the point it did and then stepped in to try to play the whole savior/victim act.
I don't know about you guys, in spite of all the turmoil that had gone on under (Felix) Magath's watch at Schalke, I still have faith that Wolfsburg will get this (2-match losing streak) turned around under him. We rehired him and gave him full power because of his championship-winning past, you mentioned the time Schalke finished 2nd in the league (and leading Schalke to the 2010-11 CL semis before they let him go last season) in 2009-10, that coming off the heels of winning the title with us the previous year, he breeds success and has won eveywhere he's gone. I know that there are fans and supporters (both of ours and our rivals) who have grown to have respect for a guy like him too, as well as those who choose to look at his dark side and talk shit about him behind his back, including some of his former players, some of them were mentioned right here in the last 2-3 posts in this thread. At least VW AG and VfL are going all-in with him, he's our man, win or lose. And whether you like him, or don't like him, you've gotta respect him for the winning tradition he has brought everywhere he's gone, it's no accident that he has won both as a player and as a head coach. Some of you would like to call Felix Magath a "dictator", or that he is like a boot camp drill sergeant with his players, but look at the end results he has produced, that's what counts, much like most of my personal friends have grown to respect me for what I've done in my area's (Port Townsend/Sequim/Port Angeles, WA) music scene, being (somewhat) successful in it despite being given jack shit to work with, so don't write him off yet until we really start stumbling down the BL table, then we can go ahead and shittalk him to death, but keep in mind, Felix is no Steve McClaren, he doesn't run a 3-ring circus like McClaren and Dieter Hoeness did last year almost to the point of sure relegation, and while I may be only in my second season of following both the Bundesliga and specifically VfL Wolfsburg, as well as a bit naive about certain off-field issues like what goes on behind closed doors, I can definitely get behind him because of it. All I give a shit about is the product that he puts out on the field every Matchday, so SCARVES/SCHALS UP!!! IMMER NUR DU VfL!!! .....or at least not yet!!! I proudly wear (one of) my VfL Wolfsburg jerseys/trikots with pride while tuned in on my PC every matchday at 6:30 am US West Coast time (PDT) on Saturday morning (unless we play on Friday or Sunday, so I tune in then), and I'm still in search of that elusive 1999-2000 VfL jersey/trikot to add to my lineup of them, so if anyone knows where I can get one (preferably size XL, in white, and blank in the back) let me know, Ive had no luck on eBay Germany so far. GO WOLVES!!!
And if he did everything you say he did without having proper authority, Scheisse should have been taking HIM TO COURT! On top of that, they should have fired him a hell of a lot sooner. Had Magath not landed on his feet in Wolfsburg, how do you know Magath wouldn't have sued for his money??!! He doesn't need to and Scheisse doesn't need to pay him because he immediately got a new job. It was good for both parties to just let this go...... This, we agree on......
All statements about Magath breaking contractual obligations are rumors which Magath has denied. Even if they are true, they concern only relatively minor sums (transfers of players like Karimi and Charisteas who cost very little, and maybe Annan). Also, in my opinion, Magath should have been given authority for transactions above 300.000 Euros like he wanted. He is the proven expert, not Toennies or the fans. There has never been a manager who had success with all his transfers. Magath's success to failure rate with his transfers at Schalke is, in my opinion, very good if you factor in the price he paid (which you must). Annan was not a failure. He played very well and has contributed a lot to their success (CL semifinals, DFB Pokal). He cost 2.5Mill. That's no mega-transfer. It is dishonest to list as transfer flops players who have not played because of injury. That rules out Tim Hoogland. Jendrisek came on a free transfer and has now been sold for 700.000 Euros to Freiburg. Jurado is a huge talent. He could still become world class if he changes his attitude. Schalke could still sell him for 10Mill now if they don't want to pay his salary and want to give up on him. That's not a huge loss. Karimi had a small salary and cost no transfer fee. Without Metzelder they would not have got Raul, and he cost no transfer fee. But I have to admit, he was a bit of a flop. And I also give you Deac as a relatively expensive mistake (3Mill is not the world, though). So, that makes 1.5 mistakes out of more than 30 transfers, that's not so bad. Magath also sold Westermann for 7.5Mill to Hamburg - which was an excellent deal for Schalke, and developed youngsters like Matip, Schmitz, Moritz and Draxler. As I said, hurt ego. And "betrayed"? Please stick to rational arguments. Did he betray Schalke by getting them into the CL semis? BL vice champions? DFB Pokal? Or by luring Raul to Schalke? By making Schalke an household name in Europe? Buying players who Schalke can sell any time if they want to reduce salaries (and cash in transfer fees) is not treason. You are repeating yourself. As I said: All those self-important football illiterates on the Schalke board and in the fanclub leadership wanted to be made feel good about themselves by making "important" decisions and being flattered by the coach. Magath is a no-nonsense professional. He would have none of it. He never coddles egos. He is not a romantic. Schalke knew that. Who made you Nostradamus? He could have got ..., he could in the future get .. - these are not rational arguments. The facts are: BL vice champion, CL semis, DFB Pokal, enough points in the BL that even a dismal record of 1 win, 1 draw and 5 losses under his successor Rangnick did not get Schalke into relegation trouble. And of course, no one is bigger than the club. This does not mean that you are not allowed to take control out of the hands of proven incompetents like Tönnies and give it to a competent professional with a proven track record like Magath. That's what I said. It would have been difficult for both Tönnies and Neuer to get Magath to agree to the sale of Neuer. It was much easier when Magath was gone. Success is all that counts. Or do you want to let players choose unsucessfull coaches so that they could have more fun? Stupid transfers? You are repeating yourself again. Why don't you try to respond to my argument (Cold feet - winning the BL is suddenly not a goal anymore? Lying about the financial situation which was so severe that winning the BL was and is out of the question)? Magath was right to blow up the team of 2009. This was a team built on counterattack from a solid defense - a team that was very limited and had maxed out their potential. It was all about long balls to Kuranyi. No way they would have gotten to the CL semis or would ever have had a chance of winning the BL (this was, after all, the declared aim for which Schalke had brought in Magath, and why Magath had agreed to come). Rafinha always had wanted to leave Schalke. That had nothing to do with Magath. Westermann was slow. Magath made a shrewd deal with Hamburg, who are now not happy with him. Bordon was old. You are making broad allegations without providing facts. Schalke got 50 Mill from their CL campaign. That's definitely more than Magath could have "squandered" if you look at the transfer fees and salaries. Here is a link to the Schalke balance sheet: (in this balance, most of the CL money is not even included yet, because of the later date of the money transfer from UEFA): http://www.schalke04.de/fileadmin/user_upload/medialib/Verein/Geschaeftsbericht_2010.pdf (Look at "Gewinn- und Verlustrechnung" on page 9: the profit before taxes is 1.8Mill)
Good post Lamprey. Süddeutsche had a great article about Magath's "reign" at Schalke and Magath certainly didn't sue them for what they wrote.
See the end of my last post. Magath didn't need to sue them. I think it was good for both parties to just go their separate ways. Especially as Scheisse should have never fired Rangnick to begin with. I may hate Scheisse 04, but I really feel that had they never fired Rangnick or just stuck with Slomka, they would have eventually won the Bundesliga. Do you have the title of that Süddeutsche article? I'd love to look for it. I don't doubt you, I would just love to see what they have to say.
@F96 Newspapers like Spiegel, Sueddeutsche, Bild etc always distort the truth and lie through their teeth. They love to show their power by destroying persons and institutions they don't like. And they don't like Magath because he does not fit into the picture of the "new Germany" they want to promote. (They are heavily politicizing sports.) Suing them is like wrestling with swine in the mud. The swine enjoy it and have a lot of experience in it. It makes a spectacle that sells even more newspapers. The media love it. So it makes more sense to not react and let the commotion die down.
Simon Kjaer sold to AS Roma in Serie A Bye Bye Simon Kjaer, Simon Kjaer is headed to Rome, at least he won't be around Bundesliga for quite a while to come. http://www.vfl-wolfsburg.de/50543 M5bc9530cb52.html I hope VW uses that $$$ wisely, Felix Magath will make sure of that. BTW, it's so screwed that ATDHENet.tv is not showing (or carrying the feed on) today's SC Freiburg-Wolfsburg match..... any alternative links I need to bookmark??? Right now I am relegated to the Bundesliga.de Live Ticker to follow along
VfL Wolfsburg after just 4 matches: EPIC FAIL Now I am not writing us off yet, but more changes need to be made, we are now 15th on the table and on a 3-match losing streak after that terrible 3:0 showing at SC Freiburg this afternoon. I did not get a chance to watch the match because ATDHENet.tv did not have a link to it so I was relegated to the Live Ticker on Bundesliga.de, so for those who did watch it, how well (or rather how horrible) did we play out there?
Magath has 3 more days to buy a new team. (According to the Sportschau he was involved in 179 transfers since he took Wolfsburg the first time over in 2007)
And you don't lie through your teeth? Your arguments are completely tainted with Magath loving bias. Oh well, to each their own. How is your beloved Magath doing so far at Wolfsburg? I see he has made more brilliant transfer acquisitions.
@Thomas T.: You are right about Bild, Spiegel, Süddeutsche and co. They make money with praising people and letting them fall. But nevertheless some of the critic points are justified. Magath is a good and successful coach, but as a manager he became a big spender. Currently the results are not good and there are some weird signings, but to be fair the squad he took over was a mess and the new players have to adopt to the team. So time will tell if his moves work out.
All I give a shit about is (both) that it is too early to write either Felix Magath or VfL Wolfsburg off, that it has only been 4 matches and already some in the media like those listed above are already calling for his head. Also, don't forget all the turmoil that has been happening with the club since he left with us after winning the title in 2008-09, Armin Veh (2009-10) and Steve McClaren (and Dieter Hoeness) (last season) have left some severe damage in their tracks. I'll bet that if VW AG had given Magath the full power that he wanted (and got now when we inked him to that new 2-year deal) back in 2009-10 and 2010-11 we probably would've perhaps become a dynasty, as Felix Magath would've done everything in his power to keep Edin Dzeko, Misimovic and also perhaps Grafite, who was coming off the greatest season of his career, and reload for yet another championship-caliber run. I also believe that we (VfL Wolfsburg) would probably advanced to the knockout stage of the 2009-10 UEFA Champions League, had Felix Magath stayed on his first stint, and we could've even given Manchester United a run for their money in it when it came to being one of the top two in our Group to advance to it. Please tell me if you guys think I'm overreacting to this, but I have been watching the Wolves' matches for almost 2 years now, and I have seen enough chaos as it is, what we don't need is a change in coaches too early, don't forget, Felix Magath inherited a mess that our club became since he left the first time around, and also, it took him two seasons to go from 15th in 2006-07 when he took over in 2007-08 on his first stint, to winning the league title for the first time in franchise history under his leadership the following season. I believe that, yes, we will avoid relegation this year but we will also become contenders for the championship if not a spot in Champions League the next season and for quite some years to come!!!
I think you're drinking the Kool-Aid far too much man. Not to say that I think Magath will fail, but what I see from you is blind loyalty. Just because he did it once, it doesn't mean he'll do it again. Yes, you guys were a "mess" last season, but Magath wasn't the only one who could have led you out of it. Back before Hoeness quit, I was wondering why he didn't hire Lucien Favre. I said that back on the old thread. I thought Favre was the perfect guy to get Wolfsburg out of this mess with the players you already had. I still believe this. That being said, I can't wait to see what Magath does with all these signings. He might simply be "buying time" with all the "has beens" he's signed. Or like Louis van Gaal, Magath's opinion of himself and what he can do with said players might be so over-inflated, he might just drag you guys down with him. We don't know. I can see why some think he's crazy. When he signed Kyrgiakos and Chris, I thought he lost his f'in mind. Magath does deserve the chance to see what he can do with this bunch. But from where I sit, the criticism is justified.
