I don't think its fall back as much as it is plateau. These are the same guys who are concurrently doing PDL, DA and A League matches. I would imagine that if they don't progress to the MLS, the A League and PDL assignments also cease as there's really not much point in the USSF further investing in these guys if they can't take the next step......so they wind up settling at the ethnic league level.
Not sure what you're debating/arguing here, as I wasn't bragging on Chicago, simply giving examples of guys I personally know who have the made the jump from ethnic leagues to the MLS. Its no coincidence that ALL 7 in the MLS now are products of Chicago's ethnic leagues. Nor did I intimate that Chicago is the ONLY place these games can be found. Read my posts again and see for yourself. And THIS is where I know you're completely out of touch with current top level amateur ethnic league soccer. Not ONE top level ethnic league team I know of is "ethnically pure". In fact, quite the opposite. The team I reffed on Wednesday and am reffing again Tuesday is the reigning US Amateur Champion. They're a Croatian side...with only ONE Croatian on the entire roster. Their roster includes players from the US, Poland, Bosnia, Romania, Mexico, Morocco, Macedonia, Jordan, England. Is that diverse enough for you? Closer to YOUR home, the US Amateur Champ two years ago was a Greek team from Boston...with only TWO Greeks on the entire roster. The team that played the aformentioned Croatian side in an indoor championship a few weeks ago is an Albanian side...with only TWO Albanians on the roster, but a whole lot of Mexican, Bosnian, Haitian, Honduran, etc...players. The unaffiliated Hispanic League I ref indoors has scores of Serbs, Croatians, Bosnians, Moldovans, Romanians, Lithuanians, etc.... playing on its teams. And my experinece in NY was exactly the same with respect to roster diversity. The guys I mention already are working pro games...how is that failing? The 7I mentioned above ALL were doing these ethnic games BEFORE they got to the MLS...and had NO PROBLEM "changing gears". Why would you think Kennedy, Okulaja, Salazar, Vasoli, Boria, Balciunas and Manikowski could change gears when they were in the same position, but the current crop of ethnic league up and comers can't/won't? I don't mean to sound flippant here, but how can you assess "high level pro" matches if you haven't worked high level pro matches yourself?
Ahhh you guys are bringing back my ethnic amateur league days in North Jersey. Driving an hour and a half each way on the Jersey Turnpike to do games in the shadow of lady liberty. Not starting matches unless there is a cop parked in the lot to help protect you, getting yelled at in Italian, Polish, German and God knows what other form of communication, all for $20 and the best tamales you will ever have in your life. 20 years later and more knowledgeable I absolutely refuse to do anything anymore older than youth (except college which pays nicely.) I did my dues and now I allow the youngins to do it. I am now getting to the point where I don't even want to center U15-19 boys matches anymore, not worth the effort.
Look, I know you just want to escalate this into some stupid argument. You want to be right, fine. You have no idea what my level of games was and that has nothing to do with this unless you just want to argue about things. What you say is just not 100% correct and you only go by what your experience is. You're so concerned with being correct that you can't bother to read the posts yourself. I get what you are saying but i don't agree and my experience tells me that the ability to shift gears from these leagues to pros is seriously lacking. I worked with many of the guys that you have mentioned, and before they worked at the level they are working now. It was a struggle for them at the beginning and a few still struggle.
I know EXACTLY what your highest level of games officiated is, and it DOES NOT include the MLS or any other "high level professional league". You and I BOTH know that. I'm just curious as to how a guy who's never been there and/or done that can fashion a valid opinion as to what it takes to get there and/or do that. And most of what you say is 100% INCORRECT eg the ethnic diversity of amateur teams, how amateur refs "struggle" to change gears, etc... That and what CURRENT MLS referees tell me. Just for the record though, my "experience" also includes refereeing, coaching and/or playing with/against numerous MLS players, past and present. My "experience" also includes having attended most of the top tier youth competitions. It also includes feedback from a FIFA inspector agreeing with me that top tier ethnic league play is of higher caliber than PDL. Oh, btw, Tamberino also agrees with me...or make that, I agree with Tamberino. This is the most curious of ALL you assertions. Exactly which one of the refs I mentioned "struggled" and/or still "struggles"? And were their struggles a funtion of not being able to "shift gears" or maybe, just maybe, the normal, ordinary "struggles" EVERY ref endures as they progress from level to level? Lets see what we have here....Ricky Salazar has a white badge and is generally considered one of the top handful of American refs, if not THE best. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't that Salazar doing last years MLS Final? And wasn't that Manikowski running one of his lines in THAT final? Isn't Manikowski a white badge and considered one of the most promising young American AR's? And speaking of ar's, don't Boria and Vasoli also have white badges, and NUMEROUS international assignments? How have THEY struggled? Okulaja and Kennedy you say? Well, I think its safe to say that whatever "struggles" those two may currently have are attributable to age and fitness, NOT their "struggle" to shift gears from ethnic leagues to the pros. They're both at the tail end of their careers, and they both know it. Nonetheless, in their respective primes, Kennedy was a white badge and Okulaja was selected to do an MLS all star game, correct? The only guy left is Balciunas, and ironically enough, he's the one with the LEAST amount of ethnic league experience amongst the group of 7 I previously mentioned. I'm not here to debate you. I simply reiterated what I heard tamberino say, which happens to coinicide with my own opinion and the opinion of many others. If you want to offer a different opinion then it might beehoove you to do so with some supporting facts and not just conclusory statements.
Your not here to debate me? Whatever you say. Your right and you know it all because someone told you what you know. This board is full of guys like you. You have no idea and what you say is very generalized. I also don't need to prove to you anything. I am what I am and I got there on merit whether or not you want to believe my career experience. These things have nothing to do with ethnic teams and teams that have ethnic names. Big difference in understanding what you have and how to handle. There are still many many ethnic teams that are truly ethnic and knowing the subtleties of what you have and who to approach that game takes a certain set of skills that many cannot figure out. I don't need to name drop as you or call out specific FIFA referees that can't manage a game that well and show this by what international games they receive not by what domestic assignments they receive. When you talk about ethnic teams you are not really taking about an "ethnic" team. Just some amateur team. I am taking real ethnic teams that do not have Americans playing or others. There are plenty still playing.
As opposed to believing what YOU have to say? If push comes to shove, I'm going with what current MLS/FIFA refs and Paul Tamberino have to say...SORRY! If those things coincide with my own personal experience, so be it. Ok, so tell me on the USSF/MLS ref continuum, what better proving ground than amateur ethnic leagues is there outside of the ALeague/NASL? This I want to hear. You just DID...there's only ONE that fits this description. LOL! No, I'm talking about ETHNIC teams. The CROATIAN team I referenced above has only ONE "American" on its entire roster. The Albanian team I referenced has ONE "American" as well, a goalkeeper who nonetheless starred in the MISL. And so on and so forth....its the same story all over the US wherever ethnic leagues exist. YOU'RE talking about your run of the mill Sunday afternoon ethnic teams comprised of a few buddies who bought a set of jerseys and simply want to play. Those teams are found all over the lower divisions of said leagues. I'M talking about TOP TIER ethnic teams that compete for state/national cups and/or in settings where REAL MONEY is at stake. BIG DIFFERENCE. What's really funny about this entire discussion is that it centers around a theme Tamberino thought so significant, he made it a point of emphasis in his presentation. You seem to think otherwise. Given the choice between the two, I'm taking Tambo's "experience" and opinion every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Along with the "experinece" of current MLS/FIFA refs. Sorry.
If you even bothered to read my posts you would easily see that I agreed with Tambo. When I made the statement that a referee needs to learn how to shift gears to apply the amateur stuff learned in the "ethnic" leagues to be able to succeed in MLS you went a little overboard in trying to prove what I said was wrong because the people you listed succeeded. Although I don't agree that all of those people have succeeded you missed the whole point that referees must learn to change gears and most don't. Now, you can try and zig zag around and try to place the focus on me and what you say I don't know but at least have the sense to read and be civil. Have a good day.
100% agreed. The games I saw at the events that get people noticed like regionals paled in comparison to what I saw in NJ amateur leagues. I think referees like Alex Prus and Mark Geiger really benefitted from this.
BAZAKOS, ELIAS Gamble, Geoff GEIGER, MARK Gonzalez, Jorge Grajeda, Hilario JURISEVIC, EDVIN Kadlecik, Mark Kennedy, Michael MARRUFO, JAIR Okulaja, Abiodun Penso, Chris PETRESCU, SILVIU TOLEDO, BALDOMERO SALAZAR, RICARDO Stott, Kevin Of the above, can somebody please tell me which referee(s) has NOT worked an amateur ethnic league match? The bolded ones I'm certain have....and judging by the last names of the remaining refs on the list, I would best most if not all of them as well. The proposition that refs who have worked in these ethnic leagues and subsequently gone on to the MLS have/had difficulty "changing gears" is patently absurd, especially when probably ALL of the CR's in the MLS have done so. Furthermore, I think most on this thread would agree that the demands of other developmental levels (college, youth, pdl) are ALSO different than MLS, yet probably ALL of the above mentioned refs have worked THOSE levels as well and have not displayed any demonstrable difficulty in "changing gears". Why the ethnic leagues are/should be any different is beyond me.
I did a youth regional final, boys U16, a few years back, with the winning goal being scored with eight minutes remaining in added time. Excellent game, physical, hard fought......yet an absolute piece of cake compared to even a run of the mill Major Division game in any of the top tier ethnic leagues I've reffed or played in. Night and day difference.
Quality of the games aside, how much do those games pay compared to College, DA, and other professional or semi-professional level games? In other words, financially speaking what are the step stones under MLS games?
You can bold Chris Penso's name. I have run the line for him in these leagues. And he seems to make the transitions just fine.
Penso is excellent. Two of my good buddies ran lines for him in an international friendly he did at Toyota park last year.
Enough gentlemen. What is quite clear is that ethnic leagues at higher levels provide much more of a test for officials than youth leagues.The amount of simulation, gamesmanship and dissent is at a much higher level.
Which is why I find it so maddening that we look at referees, particularly young ones, and see them do well in a very controlled environment and use that as a measuring stick. These leagues can, and I think should, be exploited by the USSF. You can learn as much in a typical top level amateur match in these sorts of leagues as you can in a season or more of dev academy or PDL matches.
Should there be a comma in there, or is this a recognition that this thread is just too civil? Joking aside, I actually really like this line, and intend to use it. Thanks.
Where does this fit in your bio you never responded to? https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=25430826&postcount=4
The reason USSF focuses in on "controlled environments" can be summed up in two words: resource allocations. Organized premier youth events get them the most bang for their buck. That being said if you look at the requirements to obtain grade 5 I believe there should be no doubt USSF recognizes the value of top level amateur in referee development.