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Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by AguiluchoMerengue, Jan 6, 2013.
The most overrated player in history is Cristiano Ronaldo..
maybe bc he didn't need Xavi and Iniesta to win anything? and nobody ever blamed the coach for him choking?
no, Messi himself is always the best or at least among the top2 players in this generation (CR7) with or without Barca.
Barca system just helped making Messi look like "the best ever" with his stats there - that's all
I agree that the system Barcelona makes Messi is elevated to a status of ''best of all time'' far earlier than occurred with other players.
But regardless of having Xavi, Iniesta or play in a system as good, it would still be the best player in the world. Someone has doubts of his ability with the ball at his feet? Nobody is mad at this point.
He is far superior to any player today and play a team superior to the other favors even more.
He is far superior to any player today and play a team superior to the other favors even more.
For example: I consider Messi the player more lethal and impressive (and others qualities) in history. If there was one player he most impressive and destructive that neither Messi, no records videos this player.
However, to examine whether it is one of the best of all time, ''in which position he is'' without doubt the most widely used criteria are the criteria goals, titles, importance in titles, which made in career and etc ... and in this case, undoubtedly play a system Barcelona makes life much easier Messi, who at age 25 has already sprayed records and more records.
That would not happen if he played in the EPL or a team not as superior to the others. not now.
he can dribble and he is not even the best dribbler ever.
all that greatness you mention disappear when he plays for Argentina, a few good plays but that's it, good exhibition games but when he has to deliver, he chokes.
Your level by Argentina NT greatly improved in 2012.
He has worked at a high level against all other major NT world.
And he is one of the best dribblers of all time, no doubt, but I have another thread for that...
Have you realized that you just want mess ... there are some members who are not fans of Messi but presents good arguments and are convincing, you did not have anything so far, friend ...
Amazing how a whole roster of about 25 players, 3 coaches and everything gets blamed simply because Messi chokes.
How about you just admit it, he is not that good.
If he was that good, he would have taken care of business, if Uruguay scored 4 on them, Messi should have scored 2 or 3 goals but he didn't, he couldn't, I watched those games.
Performance on a NT not a single player and you know well that ... depends on a good coach, a good tactical scheme that can keep just a good defense and a safe marking, among other things. And Messi against Uruguay was one of the best in the field.
And I'm not here to talk about the past performance of Messi for Argentina ... the fact is that in 2012 he played very well, shined in several matches ... 2x already shone against Brazil, played well against Germany, Portugal, Spain, France, Switzerland, Uruguay, Colombia ... all these times Messi has shown his football.
He is only 25 and has plenty to do for NT. Few players have won major titles by NT when young. Pele was one of the few, but was only taking its place as the protagonist of Brazil in World Cup 70, with 29/30 years.
What are you trying to say is that Messi is not good when are without Iniesta and Xavi, which is a lie because a until madman who does not like Messi to say that... And worse still says Ronaldo and Ibrahimovic has better performances.
I understand that Messi is put back (in ranking) when the discussion is among the best of all time, but in 2009-, he is the best and there is nothing to do to change that.
That is, if Messi has the best of his way every week, is already a big player in Argentina NT (see what he did in 2012) and you say he is not good because a match of Copa America 2011 ... yes it is amazing
This thread again?
This guy has been proven to be the village idiot time and time again. Ignore him.
He probably thinks Magico Gonzalez is better than Messi. Just wait for it.
it was in 2011, he was only 25, the coach didn't know how to use him, the Argentina defense was crap, Higuain took all his goals...
He is just not that good, is that simple, stop making excuses.
He has not won anything with Argentina, nothing, he is doing good this year? good, let see if he can win something now.
''stop making excuses'' whoever is doing this is you ... quit talking about Xavi / Iniesta, now speaks of Copa America 2011.... you are trying hard not to understand the obvious, so keep it up! And keep thinking that Ibra and Ronaldo are the best in the world hahahaha
What is the purpose of this thread?
This has been discussed so many times before and the same people will say the same things, once again leading to nowhere.
If Xavi and Iniesta play for Madrid......let's say that's unthinkable because Real M have never produced such players from within their own youth program and do not play such style of football.
I've always said this, the system/style of play is connected to the players and vice versa. The system makes the players better and the players make the system work. It has always been this way and it will always be that way. Every great player, past or present, has been or is a part of a system that makes him better and he (along with other players) makes the system work.
He's excellent but he doesn't have the ability to do something really unbelievable like other great players. He does all simple things really well but not the spectacular things like maradona, ronaldinho, zidane, and so on. His brilliance revolves around his fantastic agility, balance, and acceleration, and whilst he has technical excellence with the ball, he isn't the creative genius that others were. Of course iniesta and xavi make him better, because he excells at quick passing combos, but he wouldn't be able to participate in such passing combos if he didn't have ballers like them in his team. Barcelona's midfield dominate every game they play more than any other in the world, so of course that allows messi to show what he capable of more often than other players. The only time they seem to lose the ball I when messi gets it, he has more turnovers than anyone else in la liga
First bold, to be fair, I think we should say that Messi has NOT YET shown his "magic" in big games outside the Barca team. (I do think he has the ability , jut his ADAPTATION needs to be improved)
2nd bold agree 100%, I have seen many games Barca dominated >70% without Messi. However Messi is also a key in scoring some winning goals and key for Barca in "smashing" other teams (with 3,4 goals) - Without Messi Barca might still enjoy 60-70% possession butthere si a small risk (like Spain NT) that they would be caught dead to find the winning goals!
"The hardest thing is to play simple" as one of the famous quotes by Cruyff states. Plus, Messi makes a lot of things look simple, but they are not, for if they were then other players would be doing them too.
May I ask what spectacular things you are referring to that Maradona, Zidane, Ronaldinho, etc. did and Messi doesn't do? For example, isn't it spectacular/unbelievable that Messi scored 91 goals in 2012? 5 goals in one CL game, 2 years after scoring 4 also in one CL game? Playing on such a high level consistently and adding something every year to his game? 4 years in a row top scorer of the CL? His goals from FKs, his individual goals, his ability to take on multiple defenders and his passes to his teammates? How about his effectiveness? Hat-trick at 19 years old vs Real M? And do I even need to bring his goal vs Getafe at this point?
I think Messi has done plenty of spectacular things in his own right. Just because perhaps you can't acknowledge them or do not appreciate them, it doesn't mean that he hasn't.
Not as spectacular because like everybody else is pointing out, Barca doesn't give the ball to anybody, they take over, all Messi have to do is make good runs and put the ball in, he doesn't play with that much pressure since his teammates play perfect passes for him. Spain smashed everybody else without Messi.
Spain dominated everybody, yep, never looked like they needed Messi.
That's not true and I don't see the connection. But if that is your excuse, then so be it.
That's correct. Villa did a great job in WC10, then got injured. Even Torres was a bit off scale they got Llorent, Silva, Cecs, Salgado , Carzola ... to comply to any great attacking force in teh world
As funny as it may sound, it make sense.
The reality is, Xavi and Iniesta are simply perfection together.
People here argues that Messi playing without Iniesta and Xavi is a big "myth," and I ask them, how is that a "myth?"
He is playing without Xavi and Iniesta in Argentina and he chokes.
He is an attacking player, his job is to score goals, and he is also the "best" player in the world, so there is absolutely not excuse for his embarrasment in the last Copa America.
Funny how when Ronaldo doesnt deliver for Portugal or Ibra for Sweeden, is their fault. When Messi doesnt deliver for Argentina, they blame everybody and anything but Messi, even the Volcano
Messi has been delivering for Argentina the past 13 months.
If Xavi and Iniesta didn't exist, Cesc never would have left Barca and the trolls would be saying, "if Cesc played for Real Madrid ....?"
Cesc is a better all-around footballer than Iniesta, but he's not as much of an expert on maximizing his impact in the Barca system because he missed all that time while at Arsenal.