Ideas for MLS League Design [Superthread] III

I recently posted this design on another thread. It takes some of the Structure from MLB and NFL, two proven business models for a country as large and diverse and the US.

Ultimately have 32 Teams:

WESTERN CONFERENCE EASTERN CONFERENCE
Northwest Division Southeast Division
Vancouver Miami
Seattle Orlando or Tampa
Portland Atlanta
San Jose Charlotte or Raleigh
Southwest Division Mid-Atlantic Division
Los Angeles Washington or Baltimore
Chivas (move to Orange Co. or San Diego) Philadelphia
Phoenix Pittsburgh
Salt Lake New York (Newark)
South Central Division Northeast Division
Colorado New York (Brooklyn/Queens)
Dallas New England
Houston Montreal
San Antonio Toronto
North Central Division Midwest Division
Kansas City Detroit
St Louis Cleveland (from Columbus)
Minneapolis Cincinnati
Chicago Nashville

Some of the teams can move around, especially in the midwest. There are only three teams in Canada because Canada has approx 30M people to approx 300M in the US so the 1/9 ratio is fitting. The ideal on the team selection is to get into every major media market in the US and Canada. Long term MLS should think more MLB and NFL and less NBA and NHL.

The schedule would consist of one of the following:

Option 1: Play everyone in your conference home and away. Play one full division from the other conference on a rotating basis so that you play every team every 4 years and host every team every 8 years. Total of 34 games per year.

Option 2: Play everyone in your division home and away. Play one game against every other team in the league. Total of 34 games per year. (Have to give credit to Chungachunga for that option)

For the playoffs just copy NFL with Divison Winners, 4 Wildcards, and Eastern and Western Conference Champions facing off in the finals.

I now soccer purists want the EPL soccer model in the US, but long terms you probably have to chose between the EPL business model and making a run a EPL level talent 50 years down the road.

 

For the lower division I would like to see them follow the Baseball/Hockey model. Sign deals with the lower divisions, NASL (AAA) and USL (AA), and get rid of the reserve teams. Have the major league pay the salary of the minor league players, coaches, and refs. The lower leagues allow MLS to call up players in return for financial stability.

At the lowest level, MLS teams should drop the development academies in turn for a nationwide little league. This makes sure that prospective athletes in areas without MLS franchises are ID'd and developed.

 

Still, the best format there is:

REGIONAL PHASE
5, 6 team leagues.
10 home/away games


Pacific
Los Angeles Galaxy
San Jose Earthquakes
Seattle Sounders
Portland Timbers
Vancouver Whitecaps
CD Chivas

*could move Chivas to San Fran, Sacramento, Riverside, or San Diego

Heartland
Sporting Kansas City
Real Salt Lake
Colorado Rapids
Phoenix*
Las Vegas*
Omaha*

*alternate choices: El Paso, Albuquerque, Tulsa, Oklahoma City, Tucson

Midwest
Chicago Fire
Columbus Crew
Toronto FC
St Louis*
Detroit*
Minneapolis*

*alternate choices: Milwaukee, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Louisville, Ottawa, Dayton, Indianapolis, Des Moines

Northeast
New York Red Bulls
New England Revolution
DC United
Philadelphia Union
Montreal Impact
New York City*

*alternate choices: Hartford, Rochester, New Haven, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Buffalo, Syracuse

Southeast
FC Dallas
Houston Dynamo
Atlanta*
Charlotte*
Orlando*
San Antonio*

*alternate choices: Tampa, Fort Lauderdale, Miami, Raleigh, Virginia Beach, Richmond, Birmingham, Nashville, Memphis, Jacksonville, New Orleans, Austin, Charleston, Chattanooga

NATIONAL PHASE
-from regional phase, top three in each conference advance to MLS premier and bottom 3 advance to MLS classic.
-2, 15 team leagues
-28 home/away games (+10 from regional)

PLAY-OFFS
-Winner of MLS premier gets bye to MLS cup final.
-#2-7 in MLS premier are selected to go to MLS play-offs
-Winner of MLS classic challenges #8 MLS premier at #8 home (1 game).

Pros:
-more MLS teams=more fans + national footprint
-regional conferences will cause various support/drama/storylines to follow in the national phase.
-more intensity placed on rivalries + cuts down on travel & wear/tear on players.
-excitement of pro/rel but with the safety net of "there is always next year."
-Still around the same amount of games played. (schedule could stay mostly the same)
-much more competitive and less time to sleep through the season.

Cons:
-depleting player pool to compensate for 30 team league (note: has not been an issue yet)
-need to find 11 new ownership groups to step-up to the plate. (so it may take some time to implement)
-small chance some of the flagship teams might not meet up (if they underperform during that season)
-wouldn't satisfy the eurosnobs who want a single table format (that format is pretty much agreed upon to not work in America).

Conclusion:
This model would take awhile to put into practice but it should be the ultimate goal due to its ability to maximize the league's potential with the least amount of cons (for example: too many games or having to implement the traditional pro/rel system).

 

This may or may not be the correct place for this post so don't rip my head off it's not, but with a lot of talk about the reserve leagues going on, expansion, plus how to stabilize the NASL/USL this is where i've decided to place this thread.

After the recent turn of events where the USMNT has crashed and burned out of CONCACAF tournaments, i have questioned the fact that there is still not a stable 2nd tier league for our more raw players to hone their skills. the NASL seems like it is making progress but it is far from a solid foundation. So, what is the best for American soccer and lower division soccer?

Personally, i would like to first see the NASL & USL merge and let the third tier be the PDL. Secondly, i believe it wouldn't be a bad idea to allow MLS reserve teams to compete in the NASL. Third, i would like to see Garber appoint someone to help oversee the lower division and ensure its growth...for instance, ensure that new teams meet the criteria of having a stable ownership and a SSS that is adequate for lower division soccer. Fourth i would continue to encourage these games to become available through Fox Soccer Channel or the internet so that teams can gain more publicity. Finally if a team is "promoted" to MLS then they will still have to play a reserve team in the 2nd tier.

My Format for NASL/MLS2:
Western Conference
1. LA Galaxy Reserves
2. Chivas Reserves
3. SJ Reserves
4. Seattle Reserves
5. Portland Reserves
6. Vancouver Reserves
7. FC Edmonton
8. Las Vegas*
9. San Diego*
10. San Francisco*
-Sacramento, Fresno, Riverside, Victoria, Calgary

Heartland Conference
1. RSL Reserves
2. Colorado Reserves
3. Dallas Reserves
4. Houston Reserves
5. SKC Reserves
6. San Antonio Scoprions
7. Austin*
8. Omaha*
9. Tulsa*
10. Phoenix*
-Tucson, Albuquerque, El Paso, Oklahoma City

Midwestern Conference
1. Chicago Reserves
2. Toronto Reserves
3. Columbus Reserves
4. Minnesota Stars
5. Ottawa*
6. Dayton Dutch Lions
7. Milwaukee*
8. Detroit*
9. St. Louis*
10. Indianapolis*
-Cleveland, Cincinnati, Des Moines, Louisville, Charleston WV

Southern Conference
1. Carolina Railhawks
2. Atlanta Silverbacks
3. Fort Lauderdale Strikers
4. Tampa Bay Rowdies
5. Orlando City SC
6. Charleston Battery
7. Puerto Rico Islanders
8. Charlotte Eagles
9. Nashville*
10. Birmingham*
-Wilmington Hammerheads, Memphis*, Jacksonville*, Savannah*, Chattanooga*, New Orleans*, Greensboro*,

Northern Conference
1. DC Reserves
2. NYRB Reserves
3. Philly Reserves
4. Montreal Reserves
5. NE Reserves
6. NY Cosmos*
7. Rochester Rhinos
8. Pittsburgh Riverhounds
9. Richmond Kickers
10. Baltimore*
-Harrisburg City Islanders, Hartford, New Haven, Syracuse, Buffalo, Quebec City

 

Considering that the NASL exists for no other reason than to not be the USL, this just isn't going to happen.

But you're right about the lack of a stable second division hindering the game's progress in this country. I actually wouldn't mind a setup along the lines of the minor-league baseball model, in which a major-league team sends players to wholly affiliated minor league clubs for seasoning.

I'd also like to see a new way of dealing with college players, allowing MLS teams to draft kids early, hold their rights through their college careers as in the NHL, and have their own PDL teams for their draftees in the summer.

 

NASL also has some strict requirements they are struggling to meet, and something like this would guarantee their ability to do so as well as solidify their status above USL Pro for good, probably convincing most of the USL teams to move up in the name of lower travel costs. For example, if you had 27 teams in NASL this year instead of 8, you could easily create regional divisions. And low travel costs means more viability for new teams to possibly enter. NASL clearly stands to gain from this sort of deal.

If MLS wants something right, they have to do it themselves or do this. Its clubs stand to gain by getting their reserves more games and therefore more development and by getting the league's name out there in markets without MLS teams. It also means MLS doesn't have to run their own Division 2, since this would make NASL a stable league.

This really belongs in You Be the Don, but I like the idea anyway.

 

Just my two cents.

MLS needs to grab the best of the lower level clubs into a 2nd division. Instead of dragging them into the single structure of MLS. Have each club invest 10 million in their own club which is invested in bonds to provide a 500K or so revenue stream for each club. So instead of paying massive franchise fees to the league, the clubs invest the money in themselves. Toss MLS Championship on the league name along with MLS Premier on the main league. Include them when you sell television rights. Have a league only cup with winner getting a CCL berth.

By having them invest so much in each club, cities and other investors will be way more inclined to invest in stadiums for the clubs as well. Make a league where the teams are going to be around for more than a couple of years and make it worth it to the clubs to be involved in the league. MLS should make expansion to Premier a requirement to be in lower league for several years. The biggest problem with the lower leagues is no one knows who will be playing each year. MLS is could even farm lower level players from reserve squad to these teams to save on costs. Anyway back to sam adams for me. Cheers.

 

for a more immediate version of this system (no expansion teams besides Ottawa who are slotted to begin play in the NASL next season):

Western Conference
1. LA Galaxy II
2. Chivas USA II
3. San Jose Earthquakes II
4. Seattle Sounders II
5. Portland Timbers II
6. Vancouver Whitecaps II
7. Colorado Rapids II
8. Real Salt Lake II
9. FC Edmonton

Southern Conference
1. FC Dallas II
2. Houston Dynamo II
3. Sporting Kansas City II
4. San Antonio Scorpions
5. Atlanta Silverbacks
6. Orlando City SC
7. Fort Lauderdale Strikers
8. Tampa Bay Rowdies
9. Puerto Rico Islanders
10. Antigua Barracuda

Midwest Conference
1. Toronto FC II
2. Columbus Crew II
3. Chicago Fire II
4. Dayton Dutch Lions
5. Minnesota Stars
6. Rochester Rhinos
7. Pittsburgh Riverhounds
8. Harrisburg City Islanders
9. Ottawa*

Atlantic Conference
1. DC United II
2. New York Red Bulls II
3. Philadelphia Union II
4. New England Revolution II
5. Montreal Impact II
6. Charleston Battery
7. Charlotte Eagles
8. Carolina Railhawks
9. Wilmington Hammerheads
10. Richmond Kickers

 

I think the way to build a viable second tier league is by including cities that may be deemed as markets that are too small or may be too risky for MLS to fully invest in. The system is based upon pro/rel not being close on the horizon. The system would include cities that have soccer tradition or already have NASL or USL clubs. Cities like Pittsburgh, Edmonton, Ft. Lauderdale, Tampa Bay, Richmond, Charlotte etc. They would also include cities that may be viable in the future like Milwaukee, Cleveland, Indianapolis and St. Louis. This is a short list of cities of course. These markets with the exception of a few are starved for professional sports. That would lead to buzz and attendance influx to MLS 2 even though it is second tier. The expansion fees would of course be a fraction of what they are for an MLS one team and the SSS would be a smaller size as well. MLS could say you need a SSS of at least 7500 capacity or something to be eligible for a franchise. And they also could state that the stadium design be expandable for future investment. With the fractional costs to the league it would allow for relatively "safe" probing into future expansion sites. There would of course be backlash on which teams are chosen for expansion when they aren't do to performance. Say a site like Pittsburgh gets chosen to be and MLS 1 site even though they don't finish well. Its not pro/rel but its promotion if your market thrives enough.

 

that's why i like this system...i believe it would be a good way for potential owners to get their foot in the door without the arm and the leg it'd cost to field a MLS1 franchise...plus, if they see their product is worth promoting, they can make the jump to MLS1...see: Seattle Sounders, Portland Timbers, Vancouver Whitecaps, and Montreal Impact. It's a way of encouraging the lower divisions to better themselves.

 

What's keeping owners from doing this now? There is a league that already exists in which people can invest in a second-division team in any of these markets, but there aren't enough owners as it is to fill out the teams that already play.

 

^ which is exactly why I get to go to the inaugural home game for the San Antonio Scorpions this Sunday.

 

Unbelievable. Someone constantly posts complete nonsense, has people lay out tons of factual information shooting it down, then runs and cries to a mod to get the posts removed. Pathetic.

 

Wow. You are right. This thread should be closed.

 

Please have this post on the comments section on ESPNSoccernet in which there are articles about expansion and then all of a sudden the comments are filled with bullsh*t about how we need pro/rel and how we should do this and this. Most of them envolve the NASL and USL working together! That will never happen!

 

i am not necessarily suggesting that NASL and USL work together...i'm implying with current trends of MLS buying out or convincing these teams to join their ranks as a tool for MLS or the USSF to implement into a stable 2nd tier league. The NASL/USL are not going to survive so long as MLS is poaching their best teams. Do you agree or disagree? It is my belief that it would better these lower division teams to have more stability. Also, i never once suggested pro/rel in this thread.

This idea is not such a far-fetched concept that it should offend anyone but i welcome anyone who wants to civilly tell me why they think this is not a good idea and explain why... Do you believe the current system works better than a more formal and stable 2nd division? or do you have other suggestions? i welcome an educated rebuttal...otherwise, just ignore the thread and it will disappear.

 

Oh, I think you got me wrong there. What I meant was that yesterday ESPN had an article about the MLS president being in North Carolina and most of comments in the comment section were about different ways MLS could start relegation and some of them implied that NASL and USL work together. I tried replying to most of these posters with good reason for how they wont work together and that it is better to let them get stable on there own and then see in maybe a few decades from now whether pro/rel could ever even work but they would not listen and kept preaching there "amazing" pro/rel idea.

Which is why I said that this...
"Unbelievable. Someone constantly posts complete nonsense, has people lay out tons of factual information shooting it down, then runs and cries to a mod to get the posts removed. Pathetic."

Should be posted in the comments section of that article because it is true. Many people had stupid ways of pro/rel, I and others went against what they said and BAM... they start what I call "The Rant".

 

That is not what is happening AT ALL. The MLS could care less if ownership groups currently running USL or NASL teams apply to join. When Seattle got their MLS expansion team, the ownership group was more than just the people who owned and operated the USL team and there was initially no conception of linking the nickname or minor league team with the major league team. MLS almost got a team called the Seattle Alliance, for god's sake. Vancouver and Portland and Montréal are all the same - the MLS didn't say, we think we'll expand to the best minor league markets. What happened was the owners of the clubs in those minor league markets, who for the most part happened to be some of the stronger if not the strongest ownership groups in the minors, put together ownership groups and applied to join MLS. There is no "poaching" going on. Seattle didn't get picked because the minor league team drew well. Neither did Vancouver or Portland (though the longevity of the minor league teams there probably helped MLS realize those cities had better bids than St. Louis or Ottawa, remember). Nor Montréal. MLS expansion happened because the owners had deep pockets and stadiums to play in, and because those owners wanted to be in MLS. It's not because MLS begged those clubs to join. Just the opposite.

Furthermore minor league soccer has stabilized for the most part. Yes some teams start up, some teams fold, happens every year, but there is still a good core of teams who are either profitable, enough of a tax write-off to may as well be profitable, or with owners who don't care about making money floating around. MLS has absolutely no need to get involved in any of this.

How long will it take for this post to get removed? I'll get my stopwatch.

 

i've got no problem in the least with someone disagreeing with my post...in fact, i welcome it because i believe it's a great way to get insightful ideas. but there's no point in getting nasty (not saying you)....when you can either respond with why you don't think it's a good idea or simply ignore the post until it disappears. BigSoccer doesn't require members to read every single thread.

I do want to note that as far as pro/rel...i don't think it'll work here. at least, not for a long, LONG time. However, i do think there will be some sort of format that will need to implemented to meet the demands of more markets wanting to expand into the league. Look at the other professional leagues in the country: NBA=30 teams, MLB=30 teams, NFL=32 teams, NHL=30 teams. Whether posters want to agree with it or not but MLS will eventually reach around that number. There are too many viable markets that will enter the league at some point in the forseeable future as the sport continues to grow into mainstream America. It's inevitable.... but again, that's not where i'm trying to take this thread.

But since you mention "rants"...i'm going to try and sum it up in a few bullets regarding my argument for the need to implement this system:

*MLS teams need a reserve league to compete in... MLS teams aren't going to want to always loan their players out to lower division teams...i'm sure most coaches want all of their guns available in their arsenal. Well, in this system the coaches can keep their players with the team but still get them to face valuable competition. Further, it kills two birds with one stone: provides MLS a competitive reserve league (which has proven to be critical); it provides opportunities for the lower divisions listed below:

*NASL and USLpro are going to have to come to terms with the fact that MLS is going to poach their best teams. It's the nature of the beast. They simply cannot survive in this market. Look at Orlando City SC...they're doing well in USL, now they want to enter MLS. This is becoming the route for teams to enter MLS because it is the safest way for potential owners to know that they are investing into a winning product.

*this benefits potential owners because they can try out the lower divisions before they fully invest into becoming a successful MLS franchise... think of it as an owner starting a JV team before going for Varsity. And i believe the general consensus of most current owners in the 2nd division is they would prefer to be in MLS if they know they have will have the support and could acquire the funds to be competitive. In this structure, they will be given the opportunity to test the waters without diving head first into the deep-end.

*And, it's best for all parties involved for the lower divisions who do not receive the media attention of MLS to not have to travel from Edmonton to San Juan. It would be best for these teams to form regions where they can save on travel costs and focus that money on investing into the team.

*Finally, (don't get hung up on this bullet) when you look into the crystal ball in the far away future... you can promote teams based on success of their franchise, you could implement a pro/rel, you could start a more americanized version where you divide teams into conferences, or you can keep a cap on teams into MLS1 based on the needs and demands of the league and country. either way, it's in our best interest to stabilize the 2nd division for the future of the sport in this country. And fwiw, you can say the 2nd division is stable when we can go more than a couple years without a single team folding.

 

There is no "need", it is an idea.

a) MLS teams already has a competitve reserve league. Adding in minor league teams would make it more difficult logistically on MLS but also makes the assumption NASL teams are as good as MLS reserve teams.

b) See above - MLS hasn't "poached" any markets. The Seattle expansion had been talked about for a long time, and the owners of teams which had been in the lower divisions for a long time decided to throw the money down and go to MLS. If Orlando move to MLS, it is because the ownership group has money and a long term revenue-controlled stadium plan, not because the minor league team drew X number of fans a game.

c) If you look at the teams in the USL who have been around for a long time, it doesn't read like a list of MLS expansion cities. Charleston, Charlotte, Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, Richmond, Rochester, Wilmington have all fielded teams since the last millenium. If you look at NASL teams, I've said it before, if they want to go MLS all those owners need is a stadium plan, at least $50 million dollars, and for MLS to sign off on it. None of those three things are easy.

d) Potential MLS owners do not need to run a minor league team in order to make an application to join MLS. See: every expansion team before Seattle, Philadelphia, Ottawa, FC Barcelona Miami. A potential owner will jump at the chance to own an MLS team because of the single entity structure, not because of the minor league team.

e) Travel is an issue, but if the travel is the only issue the club can always self-relegate to PDL.

f) The last three MLS expansion teams have not been "promotions".

g) The only two teams who played in NASL/USL last season who are not playing in NASL/USL this season are the Montréal Impact (ownership group bought MLS franchise) and FC New York (who did not fold but instead self-relegated). Of the 12 teams in the USL First Division in 2005, 11 of those markets still have either the same football club or a "better" football club (Toronto Lynx). 5 of those markets are in MLS, 3 are in NASL and 3 are in USL, with Virginia Beach the odd club out. Of the 9 teams in USL Second Division 2005, 9 are still around, 5 in PDL and 4 in USL. So if anything, since 2005, minor league soccer has actually seen an increase in investment as new teams are added to replace the ones whose owners went ML$.

h) You are now mentioning pro/rel which is the death knell of any argument.

 

"How to build a solid/stable 2nd tier league?"
Go to the games and support the club. Your ideas are non-sense. MLS-NASL-USLpro

"Personally, i would like to first see the NASL & USL merge and let the third tier be the PDL." NASL & USL will never merge. Teams might move between them but they are two organizations that have different agendas.

"Secondly, i believe it wouldn't be a bad idea to allow MLS reserve teams to compete in the NASL." Alright, what team do you think is going to spend millions on this? It's not a horrible idea and there are several examples world wide like Barca's B team but this is a silly model for the reserve team. I much more realistic idea would be a combined reserves league with NASL and MLS sides represented.

"Third, i would like to see Garber appoint someone to help oversee the lower division and ensure its growth...for instance, ensure that new teams meet the criteria of having a stable ownership and a SSS that is adequate for lower division soccer."

Garber is not the USSF and the USSF does already set standards. WOW.

"Fourth i would continue to encourage these games to become available through Fox Soccer Channel or the internet so that teams can gain more publicity."

Duh, obviously they would enjoy being on TV ... they'd also like to have big corporate sponsorship and have Messi sign with the league.

"Finally if a team is "promoted" to MLS then they will still have to play a reserve team in the 2nd tier." This one is just dumb.

 

Well...

They would have to work together if they merged. Which as others have pointed out, is an impossibility given that the NASL exists because their club owners wanted out of the USL

And other people have already handled the fallacy that MLS is "poaching" NASL/USL markets. You can't poach something that is jumping into your bag.

Most of the soccer fans who post on ESPN articles are complete idiots and have no clue about what is happening with soccer in America under MLS with the NASL and USL. That's why it is hilarious to read their off the wall pro/rel ideas. They are just EPL and Barca/Madrid fans who assume because most European leagues have pro/rel, we should have it here. Just because it is proper football. Funny, for all their talk about pro/rel, you couldn't pay any of these fans to actually watch or go to a NASL or USL game to support American soccer.

 

Can the mod who decided to remove the first wave of posts that destroyed the factual inaccuracies in this idiotic thread show a shred of decency and get rid of the thread as it adds nothing to the discussion at all?

 

I see all the talk on this thread and I just laugh. You cannot deny the fact that the markets MLS wants are the ones where NASL & USL are now or soon will be. NYC2 is now the exception to the rule. They could well be the last franchise developed from scratch to go straight to the top flight. MLS will grab Orlando and others who emerge in the same way BECAUSE IT DECREASES FINANCIAL RISK FOR MLS. You let the lower division owners do the thankless work of starting from nothing and then pluck only the ones which bear fruit. Any idiot would do the same in their position. It is not mere happenstance that the four most viable USL clubs ascended to MLS. It will happen again because it's the natural function of capitalism. There's no stability on the horizon for the lower divisions, none, zero, zilch, nada.

 

Unlikely.