I meant what I said and I said what I meant. MLS will be a top league in the World by 2022 one-hund

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by triplet1, Nov 29, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This.
     
  2. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    It's a UK labor rule.

    For wealthier EPL clubs, it makes sense to bring in players via the "passport factories" like Belgium and Spain - Arsenal did it with Beveren - but there's also a risk involved there.

    And the EU East Europeans won't just come to Scotland in general because the cost of living is lower there (+ home cooking/language/culture/weather - all important variables), so for the similar wages, the Poles, the Czechs and the Slovenians will just play for home leagues.

    And, if they are good enough to be tempted by the higher wages, they'll go to another Slavic speaking league like Russia or Ukraine. Then they will choose Germany - no non-EU labor laws and plenty of East Europeans present.

    Belgium (no non-EU limits aside of a small minimum wage) and France (preference/citizenship to the French speakers) will pick up a lot of the French speaking Africans. Add Spain and Denmark to the list of leagues that will give the benefit to the Cotonou Agreement (most of Africa + Caribbean) participants and Norway and Sweden that have no limits at all.

    This leaves SPL (and the English Championship too) with some slim pickings.

    The EPL teams will just skim off the cream of the global crop and have little problems with these barriers.
     
  3. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ok, I was under the impression that the rule to limit not EU players was a FA rule and that clubs could file cases to the FA to make exceptions for "special" talent or something, I did not know it was a UK government rule.
     
  4. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    The "special talent" is a part of an appeals process, when the player wouldn't qualify under the stipulated "75% of the official matches played for the Top 70 FIFA ranked team over the immediately preceding 2 year period".

    So, the qualified players are in automatically (Roger Espinosa was an automatic) while the rest have to go to the appeal board, where arguments can be made that Robbie Findley is clearly a superior talent since he played for the US in the World Cup. This is where it gets tricky - a Brazilian or an Argentine with a U-23/20/17 pedigree will get approved a lot faster than an average American.

    That said, there's a discussion on Agudelo and Zusi on the YA boards that there's a lot more leniency given to the US players lately ... so much leniency, in fact, the marginal US-teamers under Bradley - Ream, Findley, Rogers - are having a very difficult time getting off the benches in the Championship and even League One.

    On the other hand, someone like Geoff Cameron thrives in the EPL itself.

    No one said that this was an exact science.
     
  5. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But it is a UK government board making that decision right? Some government panel sits and decides who meets the requirement and who does not.
     
  6. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Yes, the Sports Department of the labor board.

    There are regional offices. Speculations are that the Glasgow based bureaucrats will do whatever Rangers and Celtic want while the Londoners will bend over backwards for Arsenal and Chelsea.

    ManU rarely get turned down either ... but smaller clubs do have to make a case.

    Of course, Arsenal rarely needs a substandard player but they have gone for some very young players like Rio Myachi too.
     
    ceezmad repped this.
  7. vevo5

    vevo5 Member

    Nov 23, 2011
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If MLS sticks with the status quo, it won't become a top 10 league anytime soon.
    And first, MLS needs to surpass the Mexican League.

    current salary cap and its 5% increase will end in 2014

    2010: $2.55 mil
    2011: $2.677 mil
    2012: $2.811 mil
    2013: $2.95 mil
    2014: $3.10 mil

    If MLS increase the salary cap to 10% starting in 2015

    2015: $3.41 mil
    2016: $3.75 mil
    2017: $4.13 mil
    2018: $4.54 mil
     
  8. CoconutMonkey

    CoconutMonkey Member

    Aug 3, 2010
    Japan
    Club:
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good stuff, we definitely have a few years to go. But the salary cap is pretty soft with all the exceptions.

    Maybe a more telling metric would be mean/median player salary. Or better yet, take out the DPs first.
     
  9. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    [​IMG]
     
  10. waltlantz

    waltlantz Member

    Jul 6, 2010
    So I think we are getting too semantic here,

    Triplet in a nutshell, what do you think is the most realistic way MLS can increase revenue and therefore salaries to move up the food chain?
     
  11. leg_breaker

    leg_breaker Member

    Dec 23, 2005
    Produce better players.
     
  12. triplet1

    triplet1 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 25, 2006
    Well, I don't think it's "chicken and egg", I think it's more like a "push me, pull you". MLS is going to have to take some risk and invest in salaries to drive revenue, not just based on the revenue it currently generates.

    That's not new. I think MLS has done that since the beginning.

    But there are limits. Even if they'll do it, it has to be very targeted spending. Right now, MLS doesn't just need good players, it needs players who can make them money.

    The TV deals are up in 2014. That's an obvious opportunity. As a percentage of capacity, good seats are still available in many MLS stadiums. That's an ongoing opportunity. Player sales? That's more difficult than many believe, I think. Development of players is important, simply because it is still cheaper than buying a free agent roster, but I think MLS is years away from developing enough quality players to really make a lot of money off of it. That's a long term play IMO, and personally if MLS can eventually make enough in sales to offset the cost of development, better coaching and better scouting, I'd be thrilled.

    So, if those are the opportunities, what does MLS really need?

    I think Nelson Rodriguez was right on the mark:

    "What are the characteristics of being the world’s greatest soccer leagues?’ One of the things that we landed on was players have a worldwide technical standard. We also had another one, which was an abundance of good [number] nines and 10s . . . I think we need still a lot of work on attacking players in this country. Clint Dempsey aside, with his phenomenal success in the Premier League, it’s still an area where you look at the recent qualifiers and no Dempsey, Bradley, Donovan and ... two goals in two games. Not easy. I think that that is a big area."

    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-t...player-behind-the-lines-with-nelson-rodriguez

    MLS still has to import 9s and 10s.

    And that's okay.

    Look at the top goal scorers in leagues like the Eredivisie that are great at developing players and notice how few are Dutch:

    http://www.worldfootball.net/torjaeger/ned-eredivisie-2012-2013/

    Even though J-League teams are limited to three per team, look how many top J-League scorers are from Brazil:

    http://www.worldfootball.net/torjaeger/jpn-j-league-2012/

    Look how many top scorers in the Mexican League are imported!

    http://www.worldfootball.net/torjaeger/mex-primera-division-2012-2013-apertura/

    It's okay to buy the right offensive players if you can't produce enough of them -- and few can.

    So, Rule Number 1: With limited money to spend, import the best 9s and 10s MLS can afford. I would never, ever waste DP money on a defensive player, even if he was a "name" or had some ethnicity MLS wanted to attract.

    Offense sells for TV, so look at leagues and get better 9s and 10s. The best MLS can afford. Name players in big markets, younger guys in smaller ones.

    Second, if you look at non-attacking players, I think MLS can develop some very good ones in a reasonable period of time. That's where it has an advantage, as it has keepers and defenders who are rugged enough for a physical league. I'd earmark those for sale.

    And I'd study two clubs in particular that I think have a good "selling strategy", Sao Paulo FC and Lyon. Lyon has a price on everyone. If they get it, they don't agonize over it, they sell. And they have someone earmarked to replace that player. In short, they've done their homework.

    Brazil has suffered IMO because financial problems forced many clubs into a spiral of selling players just to pay the bills. SPFC has grown financially stronger, however, because they the right view on sales, I think, which is essentially: sell the great ones, keep the good ones, and look to bring back any great Brazilian who fails to settle in Europe at a bargain price.

    But, and here's the key, both clubs sell to get better, not just to make a profit.

    Rule 2: Sell to get better, not just to pay the bills. Primarily earmark good young defensive players for sale, but with a strategy for how they can be quickly replaced (which means more allocation money needs to be available to teams from the sales to buy or pay the replacements). Since MLS struggles to develop quality attacking players, I wouldn't be anxious to part with them, rather I'd figure out a way to pay the best of those players more to keep them longer.

    Again, I don't think MLS will be a top league by 2022, but that doesn't mean I'm not enthusiastic about the league's prospects.
     
  13. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We pretty much see eye to eye and are coming from the same places on most of all of this.

    This statement though, struck something when I read it. While overall, I agree that offense sells/all that jazz. However, it is simply undeniable the impact that defense guys have on the field when they're that good. People have taken notice of Bernardez and Collien.

    A player like Vermaelen would absolutely be worth the DP money as a defender. Guys with skill sets like Jackson (who came in as a defender and has transitioned) are worth the money.

    No, going after Nesta just because he's that Italian name people know isn't the right way to do it ... but to say that you'd never, ever waste DP money on a defender seems a bit much. I don't think it's a waste at all if you do/get it right (I mean the gamble is just as much as on an offensive player). I feel that there absolutely are Defenders that are worth DP money.
     
  14. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Not if he has Josh Saunders behind him.
     
  15. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In that case, nobody is worth DP money due to lack of anyone else being that good.

    Of course, Vermaelen would offset some leaked goals with some of his own.
     
  16. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    The GK is the most crucial defensive spot. Plus, Vermaelen would demand and receive Beckham type wages. Given that the same money could pay for a full MLS team, it'd not be a solid investment. Bex, at least, paid his own way with the hype.
     
  17. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Swing and a miss .... I knew I should have put a disclaimer on that usage due to some people's inability to read further than the literal typed words.

    I didn't literally mean Vermaelen himself. I mean, if only I'd have gone further with it and used an MLS player ... oh wait Jackson is an MLS player.

    The key word is TYPE <------ a Vermalen TYPE of defensive player.

    Although you could argue that the CB pairing is the most crucial part .... at least being an Arsenal fan I could anyway. A great CB pairing can allow for a flashes of greatness/flashes of shit GK. See: Gallas/Toure - Almunia.
     
  18. triplet1

    triplet1 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 25, 2006
    I don't think there's any question that if you want to build a competitive team pretty quickly in MLS -- most leagues really -- you do it with defense. And if I'm the general manager of a specific team, I'd be tempted to do it to.

    But I'm speaking now for what I think is best for the league.

    Again, for younger readers here, people forget that the modern NFL salary cap isn't all that old. Ron Wolf's 1990s Packer teams were some of the first great teams built early in the cap era, and he literally broke out his cap by position. He valued quarterbacks, left tackles, defensive ends -- and he put more of his cap money there. Now, clearly he needed lots of talent everywhere to win, but he wouldn't pay over certain amounts for certain positions. He'd let them walk if need be. I think Ted Thompson uses a variation of Wolf's formula to this day. (Wolf's actually got a book on this for those interested).

    Whether MLS increases the cap or not, its financial resources are very limited and will probably remain so for some time. So I'd concentrate them where the league has the best chance to get the most bang for the buck.

    Given the choice, I still say if I could direct league policy, with the few DP slots available I'd recommend MLS buy 9s and 10s.

    Another example:

    While we compare them frequently, there are, I think, many differences between MLS and the J-League that don't always make them good comparables, but in this case the rules do require a similar discipline. Since each J League club is limited to only three non-AFC foreign players, those three slots are precious. They need to use them on positions they can't easily develop themselves from the domestic player pool. What players do they buy? From what I can see, the answer is overwhelmingly 9s and 10s, typically from Brazil.

    Put the money where the audience won't miss it.

    Again, I really think MLS can develop good keepers and center backs from the domestic player pool. I suspect holding mids too. I'm not saying they aren't important, indeed I'd specialize in developing them for re-sale in Europe. If MLS can't develop enough domestic players for the league, I think MLS can also get good defenders from places like Columbia for a lot less than DP wages.

    So, while specific potential DP defenders might help a team, I wouldn't focus limited financial resources on them.
     
  19. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    You typed Vermaelen but it doesn't matter really because you could have typed Vertonghen or even Alderweireld, if you had enough time. The point remains the same. The difference on the field in goals allowed between a solid $200K-$250K/Y MLS defender like Jamison Olave or Nate Borchers and the premier player like the three Belgians won't reflect their salary disparity, whereas the difference between a Robbie Keane ($3.5M/Y) and Brian Ching ($200K/Y) would.

    Ron Wolf flew by the seat of his pants too often. he was one the major reasons why the Packers won their Superbowl and one the major reasons why they had won only one (yes, he went 1 for 3 in his coaching hires) because he overspent on marginal players in less important positions while having to let go players (due to the cap) who could have made the difference.
     
  20. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Perkins might have something to say about that ...

    Again, I agree with his overall point ... the offense/what sells focus is clearly skewed that way. It is his outright dismissal of DP money on defenders that I disagree with.
     
  21. Zxcv

    Zxcv Member+

    Feb 22, 2012
    So the third/fourth biggest club in the number 1/2 (take your pick) league in the world is now owned by their regional government. Good old Valencia. The quest for MLS world dominance continues apace...
     
  22. triplet1

    triplet1 BigSoccer Supporter

    Jul 25, 2006
    Let's put this dicussion in the context of a real potential "name" target, as Steve Davis argued much the same thing on NBCS' website arguing that RBNY or LA should go after Richard Dunne.

    http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/...ps-like-richard-dunne-as-keys-to-mls-success/

    Now, as it happens, I like Richard Dunne as a player. I'm sure he could help an MLS team. If the cap was high enough where the choice didn't have to be made, bring him in. Unfortunately, given the payroll dollars and limited DP slots, choices do have to be made, and as anemic as some MLS attacks are -- just switching play at speed remains an adventure many places -- I'd never put those dollars towards a player like him. Not when very good defenders can be developed here or acquired for far less from leagues like Columbia.

    Where I could see a compromise is on the use of a third DP slot. As I've said in other threads, in the next five years I think there would be a real benefit to have some mechanism to retain under 23 year olds who are completing their first MLS contract and have real talent but aren't quite ready to move (at least at a price MLS will accept). I'm talking about players who might make $325,000 - $500,000 who have already been on an MLS roster for a minimum period of time, again say at least three years. I wouldn't see a need to be as restrictive with those dollars regarding the position (and I also wouldn't apply a luxury tax BTW).

    But given that I've argued for years that MLS should give the teams more leeway in roster composition, its a fair question as to why I'm arguing for more restrictions in this case. Honestly, its simply being pragmatic IMO. MLS wants to be a top league in nine years time. With the money it has, many of these top players are going to have to be Americans developed by MLS. I just don't see any way the league (or US Soccer generally) can develop that many quality American 9s and 10s that quickly -- I'm talking about players who could start for mid table teams in the top four leagues. At least in the near term, the only hope is to supplement development efforts by buying some IMO, and even that won't be cheap.

    At least for the next ten years, I'd save the DP dollars for them, not the Richard Dunne's of the world.
     
  23. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I imagine that government owned teams are more than people imagine. A lot of times it is a way to get votes (like say building a stadium for a popular team that threatens to move).
     
  24. Zxcv

    Zxcv Member+

    Feb 22, 2012
    Sorry what? How is that applicable to Spain, or most of the world outside America?

    Valencia's financial issues are well documented. They defaulted on interest payments on a government loan, on top of the couple of hundred million they are in debt. And this is from the first region in Spain to ask for a bailout. Happy times ahead for Valencia.
     
  25. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exactly, Governments should not be giving fucking loans to sports teams, but the political pressure is too hard to pass.

    I say this as a fan of a Mexican team that has been government owned multiple times by the city or the state of Veracruz.
     

Share This Page