How would you handle it?

Discussion in 'Referee' started by briansnat, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. briansnat

    briansnat Member

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    It's nine minutes into a U9 game, yellow vs. white. Yellow is already up 5-0. Yellow shoots and ball is headed for corner of the goal. GK is slightly out of position but could possibly make the save. At older ages it would likely be an easy save. At U9, it's maybe 50/50 that the keeper would stop it. Defender is standing right in front of his GK and sticks his arm out and knocks down the ball. I give yellow a PK and send the white defender off for DOGSO. BOTH coaches complain loudly, yellow coach pulls a player off the field to equate.

    Then I realize I couldn't read the player's number that I hastily scribbled down so I go to the side to double check it. The kid is sobbing and an asst. coach is consoling him. White coach is pleading with me "It's the last game of the season, do you have to do this?" Yellow coach comes over and says "Please don't do this".

    How would you handle it considering the age group and other factors?


  2. JimEWrld

    JimEWrld Member

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    I would not have shown the card. Keep in mind that at U9 the players play a variety of positions. For all you know this kid was the goalie last game. I would have awarded the pk and that probably would have been it.
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  3. briansnat

    briansnat Member

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    I guess I should first mention what I did. I announced that the red card was shown in error, it was supposed to be a yellow. Showed the player the "correct" card and went on with the game. Right or wrong, I was thanked by both coaches and a number of parents after the game for doing the "right thing".
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  4. njref

    njref Member

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    I think a Yellow was a good decision if this was a travel game. For a u-9 rec, I would just go with the pk.
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  5. Bubba Atlanta

    Bubba Atlanta Member+

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    Hardly "by the book," but ... :thumbsup:
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  6. QuietCoach

    QuietCoach Member

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    I like the way you "fixed" the situation, and the referee does have the discretion to change a decision until the restart.

    In my opinion, DOGSO shouldn't be a send-off offense for U9's. Most of the time, the Rules of Competition don't bother to spell it out, but referees are rightly reluctant to show red cards to third graders.

    At least around here, most of the refs at the U9/U10 level are kids themselves, and recognizing a DOGSO would be sign of great promise for a kid ref. An experienced adult ref, on the other hand, should show restraint. The power balance between kids, teens, and adults sometimes calls for discretion. This post from last year was a particularly poignant exploration. Remember the objectives of youth soccer, align your decisions with them, and you'll be able to walk away from each match feeling good about yourself and the sport.

    - QC
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  7. tog

    tog Member

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    I like to think of these things at that level as teaching moments for the coaches. I think PK/no card is the right decision given the scenario, but I also would often go up to the coach at halftime or after the game and encourage the coach to talk to his or her team about what happened and about the rule and how in the future, as they progress, there might be cards when things like that happen.
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  8. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member

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    I'll reiterate my point that I always make in these threads: it's not the red or yellow piece of plastic that is important in these situations... it's how you handle it. I will definitely show a card--after calmly explaining what they did, and why it's not okay, and that they either need to be careful or need to go to the bench. I try to be the "understanding but firm" parent. Then just briefly and not ostentatiously display the card, to they know it's associated with the penalty.

    My only problem in this circumstance is that it may not be fair for a 9-yo to sit out the rest of the game. I don't think a brief time-out is unwarranted. So I have no problem with the original change back to a yellow. But I also don't think it's such a big deal to "show a card" to a U-little. JMHO.
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  9. NHRef

    NHRef Member+

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    dogso is ALWAYS a judgement call and DGH even more so at times. You said yourself, 50-50 chance for a save here, and at older ages easy save. I'm siding with the red card was flat out wrong anyway, keeper is behind the handling, has a decent to good chance at the save, that's not a DGH to me. Call the PK, even talk to the kid and explain how close he might have been, but I don't see a card here.
  10. techguy9707

    techguy9707 Member

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    I had a similar call in a U12B regional tournament game, but it wasn't DOGSO. The yellow player's hands intentionally (or muscle memory style) went up to the ball and the player was near the mouth of the goal, well inside the goal area. I went with a straight handling and PK. To the player I said "Sorry Buddy, you know better. It's a penalty kick for purple". It was the keeper's first PK situation and he was on the losing end. FYI, this happened within 30 seconds of the end of the first half so the kick was in extended time. I called half-time after the ball went into the net.

    I am not going to show plastic to a U12 kid unless it is very serious incident or the player obviously knows he/she should not be doing it and still does it, especially if it is in response to something I have discussed with the player before.

    In this situation above, I think I would have called the player over and we would have a conversation with the coach. In the conversation I would inform the player that what they had done was red-card worthy and that I was asking the coach have the player sub out until the next substitution period. I would not use my plastic on U12 and under unless absolutely needed. We have defined substitution times in this league and my actions would meet the league's guidelines and approval.
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  11. Barciur

    Barciur Member

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    What's this whole thing about asking coaches to sit players? Never heard of that, to be honest.

    But no, I would not give a red card for this, no way. I'd probably not even give a red card at adult level, I'd give a yellow as the keeper could be getting there. At least if it's how I am picturing it.

    I'd give a red if he picked it up on the goalline or something that obvious.
  12. Gary V

    Gary V Member

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    Unless the ball is only a foot from the line and has enough speed to blast through the back of the net, it's not an obvious goal. At U9, almost nothing is that obvious.
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  13. JimEWrld

    JimEWrld Member

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    Keep in mind, it is DOGSO . It does not have to be an obvious goal, as we normally see in these situations. Take for example a forward chips a ball past a defender who, realizing he is the last man, knocks the ball down with his hand. This would be a send off for DOGSO-H, he denied an obvious goal scoring opportunity by handling.

    Another example, from Robert Evans blog discussing an incident in the Euro game between Denmark and Portugal:

    "The major discussion point in this match was the deliberate handling by Miereles of Portugal to stop a Danish breakaway. The ball was going past Miereles about 40 yards out with a Danish forward running onto it. Miereles jumped and batted the ball away blatantly. The referee only issued a caution, but it was a clear DOGSO and should have been a red for DOGSO. The only reason possibly not to go red on this incident would be that it occurred too far away from goal. But the Danish forward was running at speed, and most likely would have got to the ball with only the keeper to beat. Preventing situations like this by clearly unfair and cynical means was the reason the DOGSO criteria were put in the Laws."
  14. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    I'd respectfully say that all of that is irrelevant to the OP about a U9 game. I think Gary is 100% spot on for u9/u10: unless it comes down to an intentioanly, cynical play to prevent an obvious goal, you don't serve the players or the game by going there.

    (Even at U14 I'm not looking for DOGSO -- unless it reaches out and bites me, it's not there.)
  15. kayakhorn

    kayakhorn Member

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    FWIW, the only DOGSO-H I've given in the last five years or so was in a high school game, and it could have been U9 for all the field awareness the offending player had. One of those "here comes the ball, I'd better catch it" situations. Felt kind of bad calling it too.
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  16. JimEWrld

    JimEWrld Member

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    I agree he is spot on for U9, but I was addressing this part of his statement:

    "Unless the ball is only a foot from the line and has enough speed to blast through the back of the net, it's not an obvious goal. At U9, almost nothing is that obvious."

    I took that to mean in any scenario (not just U9).
  17. Gary V

    Gary V Member

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    Sorry, I had so many "at U9's" in that post that I removed a few before posting. At more advanced levels, the standard is not nearly so strict.

    However, remember the USSF interpretation - but for the handling, the ball would have gone in the goal.
  18. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

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    Sorta . . . they also say DOGSO-F can be applied to a handling offense subject to the 44Ds. . . .
  19. Barciur

    Barciur Member

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    Holy hell, that's a lot od Ds.
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  20. La Rikardo

    La Rikardo Member+

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    In direct response to the title, "How would you handle it?" my answer is indeliberately.
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  21. us#1by2006

    us#1by2006 Member

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    In many years as a coach and a ref, I have hardly, if ever, seen the need to issue cards for U9. They are not an age appropriate tactic.

    I've spoken to players and coordinated 'time-outs' with coaches on occasion. I've been able to manage the game and keep control without the cards. When I have seen cards used in this age group, it has resulted I tears on the sidelines and crushed spirits which is counter to the point of the game- having fun.

    I recently had a U11 game where a defender and attacker were losing control and rapidly escalating their conflict. It was approaching a little skirmish. I turned to the coaches and said, "Coaches,these players need a substitute," which was all that was required to rein it in.
  22. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member

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    Yes, sure, but...
    Oh, please. I've also had a 13-yo girl collapse in tears when I gave her a stern talking-to, no card shown at all. And I've had a 9-yo just shrug his shoulders and walk away when I showed him a yellow card. I'll reiterate: it's not the piece of plastic that is the issue here! The issue is that the kid understands what the consequence/punishment is and that you deliver the message calmly but firmly.

    Kids know what red light/yellow light/green light means--just like Ken Aston. If it really is something that should get a card (violent behavior like hitting someone or a rugby tackle; clearly unsporting behavior like taunting), they can also know that behavior has a consequence (sitting out, or needing to be very careful from now on), and in fact a card is a nice visual cue for those consequences. And that's all the card is--a visual cue for the actual consequence. I have even explained that, they few times I've done it: "You know what a yellow light means, right? You need to slow down a bit and be more careful."

    I simply don't agree with "never ever give cards to kids under the age of X". Give them very, very rarely? Yes, because the type of behavior that merits a card is rare too. But don't lose sight of the fact that the card is not the punishment. It's just a visual indicator of the consequence already doled out.
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  23. SA14mars

    SA14mars Member

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    How could you handle it if as a referee your are just part of the field?
  24. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member

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    Interestingly, just came across this youtube clip:

    The title says "Youngest soccer player to ever get a red card", although it ends before we get to see whether the ref actually showed a card. However, he handles it well--calmly separates the boys from everyone else, gets down to their level, is clearly explaining something to them without raising his voice. The kids need to sit out, no question. I'd have no problem with telling them, finally, "You guys need to sit out. That's what this red card means." Show card, then turn them over to the coaches.
  25. briansnat

    briansnat Member

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    Nobody asked any coach to sit players. When I sent off white player, the yellow coach asked me if it was OK if he removed a player too so that the teams would be even. I told him that he was welcome to do that if he liked.

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