How good was Zidane in WC98 ?

Discussion in 'Players & Legends' started by babaorum, Aug 14, 2013.

  1. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I do not think removal of the pK is a good idea. they are goals and should be counted. However thepoint system will take care of the weight as said earlier.

    One notice that many did impress very much with Eusebio 's 9goals at WC66 , but they did not realize that 4 of them were PK that left only 5 as field goals, and guess what? 4 of them came from 1 singlegame vs a naive N Korea.
     
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  2. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    "In fact, a big reason that Zidane is my favourite player is actually due to his ability to make such pk conversions on a consistent basis."

    I was referring to a specific type of pk i.e. the high pressure, big game kind - not the league game, NT friendly level.
     
  3. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yup, that could work too.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    OK, the 'consistent basis' part of the paragraph referred to the less than a handful penalties the made in big games (but which has nevertheless an effect in the calculation).
     
  5. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #155 Estel, Sep 17, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
    I thought consistency was about being able to achieve the same result in every try and had nothing to do with the number of tries, but it might be that I was mistaken. Anyway. what is your point? If you don't rate Zidane's pk taking skills, you can come out and state that plainly.

    Also, since it was not new information to me that Zidane had missed pks for Juventus, Real and France, proof -
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/zidane-or-riquelme.572147/page-28#post-28487305

    Nor that he has taken very few pks, proof -
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/best-penalty-kick-taker-ever.319339/page-5#post-20631338

    Your hints in this aspect, which seemed to suggest that I might have been trying to lie when I was saying that one of the major things that impressed me about him was his consistent pk conversion in big games and under high pressure, were aimed at what exactly?

    If you did't believe me when I provided an explanation regarding my background about my views regarding big game pressure situation pks, you could have stated it out plainly. It was not something that you needed to hide and it would have saved us a lot of time as well, since neither you nor I would have needed to post any points on pks after that. You can still confirm the same and end this discussion btw.

    Oh, and do confirm the reasons because of which you felt that the analysis (for which I posted the link but data from which was initally posted by James) was 'subjective' and 'arbitrary'. In all this fruitless discussion regarding pks, I have forgotten to ask why you said that initially.
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #156 PuckVanHeel, Sep 17, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
    I thought the facts in this respect had to be stated.

    I also thought that you overstate Zidane his PK taking ability and cannot be a reason for taking him as a favourite. That is not saying I don't believe you are that you are lying, it is saying that you are wrong, to use a crude word.

    I have given the reasons. I said that both James his link and your link are equally subjective (despite that more info is given). You downplayed James his link on grounds of subjectivity ("criteria was rather subjective") but the same is true of your post that has been repped three times (a post that had also assist and pre-assist info).
    And all those posts about pk taking is because of this:

    I thought you were wrong and I provided the statistical facts.

    Especially because the numbers are small (and PKs aren't handed out that easily/frequently anyway), I think PKs should be totally discounted from the analysis.

    I showed how a PK is two times as easier as a "big chance" (free header, one-on-one, shot in front of open goal).

    Is the ability important? Yes, it is but it doesn't change the fact that if Bebeto is fouled two times in the penalty area, Romario has likely two extra 'big game goals' behind his name, which results in a increase of his standing.

    And it is thus a different type of game (turn-based).
     
  7. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #157 Estel, Sep 17, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
    That might not be the reason for most people, I agree, but it is a very important reason for me and I can assure you of that. It has also to do with the composure he showed when taking them which IMO was the mark of a great player. Conversely, I find it difficult to rate those players who have missed pks on such occasions (specifically those who miss such kicks through hitting them too softly or blasting them into the stands).


    Ok, then I guess our understanding of the term "subjective" is markedly different.

    The reason why I debunked that other link and didn't debunk this one on sight, was specifically because all the data was provided in this link with clear rules laid out stating what was and what was not taken into account, while the other link had among its rules this - "any league match or qualifiers in which, due to situation or objective, a result was essential". A rule which opens up a lot of games for consideration while not providing any chance to judge the correctness or incorrectness of their inclusion into the analysis, considering that no underlying data seems to have been made available.

    EDIT: As for the assist and pre-assist info, I don't understand why that is relevant to this discussion which is about the analysis done in those respective links and not my further inputs specific to Zidane. I thought such info for Zidane backed up the point that James was trying to make when he initially posted data from that link and hence I provided it (especially because it was available with me, unlike similar info for the other players).


    The data you posted supports the argument that pks have a higher (double in most cases) percentage of conversion than 'big chances' as defined by those websites.

    My initial query however was different, it being that - "Is a PK always easier?". The important word in that question being "always". IMHO the answer to that question is "No", which was the basic reason for my feeling that the analysis in question was not wrong in considering such pk goals.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Not true.

    He had two penalty goals in the game vs North Korea. One against USSR and one against England.

    He scored two field goals against Brazil, two against North Korea and one against Bulgaria.

    One of the four penalties he scored was won by himself.

    He had also an assist in the tournament.
     
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  9. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    OK rightly so ...

    What I meant related to the discussion of you about pk at big games. So I just mentioned that event.
    So if we took off those 4 pks or 3 *since he earned one himself. that made him 6goals per WC as field goals .. which was great but not as "impressive" as the number 9 in total
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes.

    Another interesting thing in the link (updated to the 2011-2012 season) is that Messi is at place 39 and C Ronaldo ahead of him at 25.
    (if one includes 2012-13 then Messi wouldn't climb but C Ronaldo would because he scored in last season's semi-final too)

    Ofc C Ronaldo is older and Messi has some more years to go but, on the other hand, the careers of guys like Eusebio and Van Basten as a goalscorer were virtually over at the age of 27 (the first became a midfielder, the other one retired altogether). And those are ahead too, at 10 and 11.

    That said, eras are difficult to compare. Some characteristics are more favourable while other traits aren't. It selects different types of superstars as well, arguably.
     
  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, sorry, I did not understand you in that way. As you tell it now I understand and I agree. The second link wasn't clear about criteria an demarcations. I interpreted 'subjective criteria' as something else.

    I also agree that the second link isn't as good. It has been posted before and back then I had the feeling that the criteria were adjusted in such a way that Messi ends near the top (the first link, which is more transparent, doesn't). The writer of that piece (Miguel Delaney) is an obvious Spain, Barcelona and Messi cheerleader as well (like also OPTA/whoscored artificially raises Messi his stats even more, I recently found out by myself).

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...-so-far-2012-13.1979312/page-10#post-27125068

    Either way, the point you raise here and raised before was interpreted by me as 'lack of transparency'. A subjective choice of criteria, meanwhile, is something that both links have in my view. E.g. what counts as a big game and the weighing of these games (and rating of competitions) is subjective.

    Sorry for the misunderstanding.
     
  12. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    For Zidane I would say he was a big games player in term of "determination and raising his games on occasions" rather than his number of goals, be filed or pk - he was not a natural scorer in style anyway.

    Like Estel mentioned, he was not a true great in FK or PK, but in big games (Euro and WC) he did score them when the team needed him! Many (French fans) were bitter and mad of his "head butt" that introduced a presence of Trezeguet - ironically the latter did miss his PK and made france lost the WC. Now there are two questions:

    - One would never doubt Zidane to have missed it or would he?!
    - One would wonder how high media and people will rate Zidane ... IF Zidane stayed on, scored his pk and then France would have won 2nd WC?
     
  13. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Agree here.

    Never said that :p

    Actually, Trezeguet replaced Ribery. By the time Zidane got his red card, France had already made all three of its subs. IMO even if Zidane had been available, Trezeguet would still have been asked to take that PK instead of Abidal or Sagnol.

    One of the many what-ifs surrounding Zidane's career. :cool:
     
  14. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The whole Muller having scored in only 51% of the big games that he played in also seems to be rather strange. The numbers being provided are 32/63 for Muller btw. So does counting only 37 big games for Puskas who played 39 games in the EC1(all knockout) with Real Madrid, considering that one criteria is - international tournament knockout stages and group matches in which a result was essential (unless Delaney is considering some knockout games to have non-essential results). Di Stefano too is only at 49 big game goals when he has that many in the EC1 itself (all knockout stages again) with Real Madrid.

    Just too many holes in that whole analysis by Delaney, for my liking, to take it at all seriously.
     
  15. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Haha ... ok I might misread your line! I meant Zidane was not among the top notch in FK nor in PK (at least not in stats) but I admired him that he DID them in big games ....
    PK (I think he missed a few at club level)
    FK I watched him at "Freekick matster" event in 2004 ... and Gosh he was not that good there :(
     
  16. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #166 leadleader, Sep 26, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
    I hope you do understand, just how curious it is, how you rate players. So players who score three times more goals than Zidane per season.... if they miss one PK in an important game.... you "find it difficult" to rate said players? Yet Zidane, with his handful of PK goals (note: against Portugal, in 2000 and 2006, both PKs only took place thanks to bad referee calls, in particular Thierry Henry's dive in 2006 was shameless, and the fact that the referee actually awarded the man with a PK, is even more shameless), you find "easier" to rate?

    It's your opinion, of course. But if you asked me, if you want to get to the quarter-final and semi-final and final, or if you want to win trophies, you need players who deliver in a World Cup Group Stage (note: Zidane never did, in my opinion), players who deliver in a World Cup first elimination round, players who deliver week after week in league games, etc.
     
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  17. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    James, why else, would you think that Luis Figo took more FKs than Zidane at Real Madrid? Because Zidane wasn't great at FKs.

    The fact that Zidane could hit a good FK in an important game, is admirable. But the fact that Zidane was not great at it for the most part, shouldn't be disregarded, in my opinion.
     
  18. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #168 Estel, Sep 26, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
    I am not saying that the PK related aspect (and it is not simply about missing important PKs but how they are missed i.e. through lack of confidence/nerves or through bad luck/great save from the gk) is the only criteria I rate players with, so there is no point in actually going after me for this comment. It is definitely among the many important criterias for me though, yes, and any player who checks a majority of those becomes a player that I prefer.

    The call in 2000 against Portugal was very justified, it was not a dive (as your have wrongly insinuated earlier in a seperate post) but a very clever handball which probably stopped the ball from going into the goal or at least still remaining in play for some other French player to try and score (gk was aleady beaten). Check vid from 1:20 -


    PK awarded to Henry in 06' was dubious yes, but then Carvalho had no business sticking his foot out like that in the penalty area either. The point however is, whether players are able to show confidence or do they show their nerves when shooting for such high pressure penalties (be they rightly or wrongly earned).


    Also, IMO Zidane's play in the 1998 WC group stages till his red card (which was harsh IMO since Bergkamp was not carded for a similar offence in the same tournament) was very very good, so we disagree there. And it is rather disingenious to try and make a case for players who "deliver week in week out" here, since it makes other readers believe that Zidane never delivered in such games, which is quite untrue.
     
  19. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Maybe Zidane did not wish to hurt any egos being a new signing. I think there are a number of reasons (other than Figo simply being better, since Figo too is not really acknowledged as a great exponents of FKs, at least not in the same breath as a Zico, Platini or even a Mihajlovic/Juninho).
     
  20. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Well let me add on ...
    When Real signed on Zidane in 2001, there was a silent competition, sosme kind of hostile environment between some players notably zidane and Figo ... especially they shared the prizes in 2 consecutive years previously: Zizou won WPOY 2000, Figo won Ballon Dor 2000, then Figo won WPOY in 2001; Yet Zidane broke his world record in fee. Del Bosque was smart enough and know how to handle those superstar's ego ... so he let Figo keeping his #10 shirt and also his 1st choice in FK/PK sharing with zidane and R Carlos as 2nd choice. He did not want to stir up the "favoritism" or to conclude that Zizou was the better player or not ...

    I think Zidane was a bit better than Figo in FK and pk. In normal team, (not galacticos) Zidane would take FK and Ronaldo would do pk ... but again, Del Bosque decide to keep things "AS IS" - like nothing change ... Not sure it was a good idea or not ... as deep down the team were not functioning to their "names sound" ... but only some great games ... in particular ...
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I was skipping through old issues of FFT and what surprised me is that the former team mates of Zidane at Real Madrid also said that he was the best player of the team, at least in a attacking way. What they say is that he played 'the easiest' (McManaman, Ronaldo, Figo, Roberto Carlos).
    Though, if I'm correct, this is less the case for his time at Juventus.
     
  22. leadleader

    leadleader Member+

    Aug 19, 2009
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I agree that there is no point in going after you just for that one comment. I think it would've been a better choice, had I simply stated that, in my opinion, you seem to overstate Zidane's legendary moments whilst you also seem to understate Zidane's many average moments.

    Like, for example, at times you say that Zidane managed to become a legend on the grandest stage there is, whereas other players, such as Messi or Ronaldinho, didn't do that. Whilst that is true, I feel as though you tend to understate (or just ignore) the fact that France 1998 or France 2002 were all-round world class teams, certainly better rounded teams than what Riquelme, or Ronaldinho, or Messi, had.

    Thanks for that video as well as the correction, I was wrong about that, apparently I multiplied the 06 incident by two.

    Yes that is the point, to some extent. But my point is, of course, that Zidane doesn't even get the chance to do that, without the help of the referee. If France got eliminated, you could also scratch that other PK that Zidane scored against Italy.

    For the record, Henry's dive must be one of the most obvious dives in the history of the WC, that was not a PK, as simple as that. But all the same, Zidane did scored the PK under a lot of pressure, and then he went one step further in the final with that chip-pk against Italy.

    I don't know much about being disingenuous, but if you asked me Zidane was pretty much average in the 1998 WC group stage games, as was also the case in the 2006 WC group stage games, and as was also the case with Real Madrid in many games against the "lesser" opponents, so, again, based on the mentioned data, which is data that you can read via statistics or simply watch on the television, I have to disagree with you on that point.

    Furthermore, Zidane's "big game" value is still a huge asset to have on any team, so personally, I don't think that his so-so performances in the lower-profile games is that big of a weakness.
     
  23. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #173 JamesBH11, Oct 4, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2013
    Yes I can second that.
    In Real Galacicos Zidane was often regarded as the best player of (atleast ) many players (Carlos, Beckham, Pavon, Makelele, Cambiasso, Helgurra, Solari
    Others like Owen, McManaman, Salgado ... thought Ronaldo was the best ...
    Another sub groups without care of who is best: Figo, Raul, Cassilas Guti... (these lads were totally against such idea "galacticos")

    What a "dysfunctional team"!


    I always said Zidane "peak time" was from 2000's , not before even 1998 (he won Ballon Dor for his WC more likely than his overall performance for Juve)
     
  24. Estel

    Estel Member+

    May 5, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    That part about it (his being the best player on the team) being less of a case for Zidane's time at Juventus is quite interesting considering that he didn't have quite as much competition there. Del Piero was the only one who could be considered to be a realistic competitor for him and Zidane beat him in the Balon d'Or ratings in 1997, in the ESM/UEFA awards (only non-WC considering awards) in 1998 and afterwards Del Piero suffered his career changing injury and was unable to regain his earlier form (at least this was the case till Zidane left Juventus).

    In any case, my thanks for the great info. Would appreciate if you can share the exact text so that I can search for an online source, i.e. if one is available.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think his legacy at Juventus is not as firm and enshrined. Yes, there was less competition in terms of really big names but also a more sound division of roles (e.g. top class defensive midfielders en defenders who can be seen as the most vital part and overall the best). If Juventus players are asked about who was the best I think Zidane is mentioned, but also Del Piero, Davids, Deschamps but also his direct successor/replacement Nedved (who did just as well one can say, had the same importance and output.

    I found the copy on the net for you:


    Page 54
     
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