How an American journeyman revolutionized Japanese soccer—and why it isn’t happening in the U.S.

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by LouisianaViking07/09, Mar 11, 2014.

  1. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    What's the likelihood of some random American from Iowa teaching top Japan executives methods that would greatly help pave the way for the nation's rise from the ashes of WW2 to manufacturing world leadership?
     
    russ and Dr. Gamera repped this.
  2. uniteo

    uniteo Member+

    Sep 2, 2000
    Rockville, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What makes you think it hasn't been overhauled in the last 10 years?
     
    Wessoman repped this.
  3. matabala

    matabala Member+

    Sep 25, 2002
    It's the culture, pure and simple. One where respect, personal discipline, self-abnegation, mental concentration and natural enthusiasm are still taught, absorbed and practiced. The other where those values are sorely absent in a popular youth culture which seems only interested in getting another tattoo. Even with a demographic crisis, the Japanese manage to do much more with their human raw material.
     
  4. NGV

    NGV Member+

    Sep 14, 1999
    #79 NGV, Mar 22, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2014
    I'm pretty sure that postwar Japan would have risen to manufacturing leadership even if that random Iowan had never showed up. The same can be said about Tom Byer and soccer.

    Of course, if you're an online sportswriter fishing for clicks, "American journeyman revolutionizes Japanese soccer" is probably more effective than "Japan develops some very good soccer players after the sport becomes extremely popular there."
     
  5. Dr. Gamera

    Dr. Gamera Member+

    Oct 13, 2005
    Wheaton, Maryland
    Off-topic, but Deming's impact on Japanese management and manufacturing practices was massive. A diehard devotee of Hegel's philosophy of history as the unstoppable movement of social forces could deny the importance of specifically Deming as the Great Man in this Great Man Theory, but other than that, @IndividualEleven is right to cite him as an exemplar in this context.
     
  6. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    Does methodologically developing technically proficient (emphasis on 1v1) soccer players pay off?
     
  7. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    There would have been aviation without the Wright Brothers, yet they played a significant role in its development. The Japanese have given credit to Byer and Deming...
     
  8. NGV

    NGV Member+

    Sep 14, 1999
    So if Deming's plane had crashed on the way to Japan, the country's economic future would have been decisively different? That's pretty implausible. You don't have to be a diehard devotee of anything to conclude that the history of economic development doesn't work that way.

    Anyway, the relevant point from the analogy is that if one wants to be viewed as a revolutionary, transformative figure, it helps a lot if you're attached to a revolutionary transformation that's already happening independently of you. If Tom Byer had decided to launch himself as a youth soccer guru in, say, Pakistan, I'm fairly sure that there wouldn't be any discussion of him here, and that Japanese soccer would have done just fine without him.
     
  9. Dr. Gamera

    Dr. Gamera Member+

    Oct 13, 2005
    Wheaton, Maryland
    I'm not qualified to be teaching history after 337 AD, and probably not really qualified to be teaching history before that either. But the perspective in the quoted paragraph sounds pretty damn Hegelian to me. You might want to check with actual professional historians, of which I seem to recall there are quite a few at BigSoccer.

    Norman Borlaug is the clearest counterexample to the idea that "the history of economic development doesn't work that way" (oh, great, another Iowan). All he had to do was patent his wheat varieties and millions of people would have died of starvation, which I daresay would have led to decisively different economic development in a number of countries.
     
  10. Scotty

    Scotty Member+

    Dec 15, 1999
    Toscana
    Does anyone know where I can find more instructional videos like the Byer one (see below) linked in the Slate article? I'm talking about simple exercises like that aimed at teaching young kids basic technique and ball control.

    I'd like to find some to use with my 6-year-old nephew, and any suggestions would be much appreciated.


     
  11. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #86 MPNumber9, Apr 7, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
    Seems likely that Byer, like any good entrepreneur, was smart enough to find a market with demand for his services and the rest is history. To believe anything else you have to subscribe to Supply-Side Economics ("If you build it, they will come") which we all know is farcical. Though I know little about it, Great Man Theory sounds a lot like much of the post-Enlightenment pre-Modernist thinking that fetishizes the role of the capitalist entrepreneur in social/economic development, much like Supply-Side Economics itself.
     
  12. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    It is happening in the US. Byer uses the Coerver method.

    From the article:
    "That year, Paul Mariner, the former head coach of Toronto FC, introduced Byer to a technique-based approach to youth development called the “Coerver Method.” It changed the way Byer viewed coaching.

    Created by Wiel Coerver, a Dutch coach, the method is a quasi-academic system based on specific skill acquisition. Rather than putting kids on a field and having them chase the ball around—which is how most young kids practice across the United States—it teaches close ball control and situational, one-on-one moves: stopovers, feints, various ways to manipulate the ball with the sole of the foot. Tactics and passing come later, once the kids master ball control."

    The italicized part is misleading at the very least about the Coerver method.

    Many coaches slander it but it's influence is everywhere. Arsenal, Man United, Bayern, JFA, French Federation, among others.
     
  13. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The simple answer is yes, BUT and there's a huge BUT

    Nearly every confrontation in soccer involves a 1v1. There can be more teammates and opponents involved but at it's core is a 1v1. The main way 1v1s are taught is to get past an opponent but there is a whole slew of other possible outcomes:
    -create space to get a shot/pass
    -buy time to let a teammate get open
    -get into a better position to make a shot/pass
    -maintain possession
    -change the point of attack
    -to turn on an opponent

    and a few more

    Further, 1v1s 99% of the time are taught with the opponent directly in front of the attacker. Well, that's not always game realistic, is it?

    Technical proficiency in all the necessary areas pays off handsomely. It's the underpinning of being able to play fast and play in tight spaces and play with little time.
     
  14. SPA2TACU5

    SPA2TACU5 Member+

    Jul 27, 2001
    ATX
    The question was whether 'methodologically teaching technical proficiency' pays off, and more so than not methodologically developing technical proficiency?

    It goes without saying that being technically proficient in all the necessary areas is very valuable.
     
  15. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Great question, very few people would ask that question.

    By methodologically, do you mean step by step? Learn A, then B, then C? If so, I would say not necessarily. It assumes that every kid learns the same way at the same rate—which is far from reality. Cycling is probably a better "method"—learn A, then B, then C then cycle back to A
     
  16. RoyalWhites

    RoyalWhites Member

    Jan 16, 2014
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I am a little late here but from reading this thread I would have to agree with someone that said we keep recycling our coaches and the politics are killing the development. I can compare it to the NFL and NBA. Where coaches get recycled but this is similar but on a smaller scale.

    I don't think these guys that are running soccer in the USA really care since they have to compete against the other big sports. Their idea is that soccer can't be big so they milk it for what it's worth.

    We do need to get some fresh blood in there. Someone that has passion for the game and want to see our game succeed. Heck, I can probably round up 100 guys from this board and give them positions in USA soccer and we would probably be better off.

    Our organized system is killing the development of kids. The kids need to be playing sandlot games on their own. They need to learn creativity obviously because the fundamentals that they are getting in organized systems aren't working. They need to love the game as well. It almost seems like a chore to go to soccer practice or play on weekends because the parents want them to. The great ones are the ones that kick the ball around and play on the streets during their free time.
     
  17. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The street soccer angle is oversold. There was a time when that was the exclusive way kids found their way into the game, but all over the world safe, open areas to play are not as plentiful. Industrialized nations have formal training for kids just like we do. Video games are ubiquitous all over the world taking kids away from "sandlot".

    If street soccer was the only criteria, why do countries like Jamaica where they have great athletes and street soccer is all over not produce any top level stars? How come our national team is just as good as countries with (allegedly) more street soccer (like Mexico)?

    Informal play is important but not in this mythic way people hold it up to be.
     
    Maitreya repped this.
  18. Right Foot Planted

    Aug 11, 2007
    This thread deserves a timely bump.

    Nimble, technical and awful all describe Japan this summer.
     
    Revolt, Cookham and SPA2TACU5 repped this.
  19. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Yup and Italy, Spain, an England,
     
    Guinho repped this.
  20. SpencerNY

    SpencerNY Member+

    Dec 1, 2001
    Up in the skyway
    Need to update my numbers a bit:

    Japan WC 1998-2014 31st, 9th, 28th, 9th, 29th

    US WC 1998-2014 32nd, 8th, 25th, 12th, ??(at least 16th!!!)

    :D

    That said, we'd really love to have Japan's technical skill.
     
  21. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Fact is that they put more players on european clubs of consequence than we do—that comes down to technical ability.

    We have a handful in England, three of them are GKs. The "Americans" in Germany aren't actually American. No one in Spain. No one in Italy, besides that Judas Guiseppe Rossi.
     
  22. nancyb

    nancyb Member

    Jun 30, 2000
    Falls Church, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not that I have any skills to speak of, but when my husband was coaching, I tried to integrate Coever method skill development into the practices of the 10 year old boys. What a freaking disaster at the rec level. They just wouldn't stay interested. Maybe for the travel teams, but I'm worried there would be too many concerns that the skill development took away from the other elements of the practice that are for winning games.
     
  23. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The DVDs do a mediocre job on how to make Coerver interesting for rec level kids.

    I do an open skills session for little kids. Any kid can come and we do Coerver-based stuff for them to get them used to touching and manipulating the ball with different surfaces. There's methods and tricks to keep the little ones interested. One of the simplest ways is to make everything a contest. Toe taps, stepping on the ball with alternating feet. Time them for 20 seconds and see how many they can do. Do it again, and see if they can beat their previous score. They're competing with themselves and then they'll start to compete with each other for high scores. But it's really more than stuff like that.

    The over-emphasis on winning games at 7 to 12 year olds is what really holds the USu back.
     
  24. jond

    jond Member+

    Sep 28, 2010
    Club:
    Levski Sofia
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The priority should be developing touch and learning movement, how to make yourself available to your teammates, not on winning.

    When the priority is winning, the biggest issue is the type of player coaches pick will be the wrong ones at youth levels. The smaller, technical guy will be left out as the larger, more athletic guy will give a better chance of winning this weekend. That's what we need to get away from.
     
  25. elessar78

    elessar78 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    ^^agree with most of that but let's make the small players with exceptional skills AND big, fast, athletic kids with exceptional skills.
     

Share This Page