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Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by Excape Goat, Jun 9, 2008.
No one is suggesting otherwise.
So what's your point?
Gotcha Aimar is the only gallina I liked as a player since Passarella. The kid was amazing but it seems timing was never in his favor. I thought he was fantastic at Valencia but it seemed like every time his form would start peaking something got hurt. Damn shame to be honest. Ortega is douche-bag and his name should never have been uttered in this thread.
That the UEFA cup isn't really 'something big' anymore....
Three of the best brazilian players of all time:
Domingos Antônio da Guia (born in Rio de Janeiro, November 19, 1912 – dead in Rio, May 18, 2000), nicknamed the "the Divine Master". He is regarded as one of the greatest players in Flamengo and Corinthians history, as well as the all time best brazilian defender.
He quickly rose to fame as one of Bangu's key players (central defender) between 1929-1932. Despite the fact Bangu had a history of fielding black players (Francisco Carregal was the first in 1905) Domingos witnessed racism in football as he was growing up. Seeing the brutality that some of the black players received is believed to have inspired Domingos's extraordinary ability to dribble with the ball and avoid defenders, a trait which Brazilians would become famous for around the world. After Bangu, Domingos moved to Uruguay's Nacional de Montevideo for a season, before brief periods at Vasco da Gama (Brazil), Boca Juniors (Argentina) and then finding a home at Rio giants Flamengo (1937-1943). A brief spell at Corinthians left Domingos to return to his beloved Bangu where he stay until he retired in 1948.
Domingos also enjoyed a successful international career, getting 30 caps for Brazil. He came to the world's attention in the 1938 FIFA World Cup finals, where he was the linchpin of Brazil's defence. Domingo's son Ademir da Guia also played for Bangu 1959-1961 before becoming at idol at São Paulo's Palmeiras.
Rio Branco Cup: 1931, 1932
Uruguayan League: 1933
Argentinian League: 1935
Rio de Janeiro State League: 1934, 1939, 1942, 1943
Roca Cup: 1945
Appearances: 25 Goals: 0
Debut: 06/09/1931 v Uruguay (H) W 2-0
Last Cap: 12/02/1946 v Argentina (A) L 0-2
World Cup 1938 (FRA): Third Place (4 games, 0 goals)
Copa América 1942 (URU): Third Place (4 games, 0 goals)
Copa América 1945 (CHI): Runners-Up (6 games, 0 goals)
Copa América 1946 (ARG): Runners-Up (3 games, 0 goals)
Source: wikipedia & http://www.world-football-legends.co.uk/index.php
Thomaz Soares da Silva, also known as Zizinho, (September 14, 1922 - February 7, 2002) was a Brazilianfootball player, who played as an Attacking midfielder, striker and a winger for Brazil's national team. He came to international prominence at the 1950 World Cup, where scored two goals. He is noted for his dribbling skills and pace.
Born at São Gonçalo, Rio de Janeiro, he played for Flamengo, Bangu, São Paulo FC, Audax Italiano of Chile among others teams. In Flamengo, he won state championships in 1942, 1943 and 1944.
In the 1950 World Cup he helped Brazil to progress to the final, but their surprise 2-1 defeat to Uruguay tarnished his reputation. Zizinho played a total of 53 times for his national team, scoring 30 goals.
Pelé always said that Zizinho was the best player he ever saw. "He was a complete player. He played in midfield, in attack, he scored goals, he could mark, head and cross."
He came in 4th place in the IFFHS Brazilian Player of the 20th Century.
Appearances: 53 Goals: 30
Copa América 1942 (URU): Third Place (5 games, 2 goals)
Copa América 1945 (CHI): Runners-Up (6 games, 2 goals)
Copa América 1946 (ARG): Runners-Up (5 games, 5 goals)
Copa América 1949 (BRZ): Winners (6 games, 5 goals)
World Cup 1950 (BRZ): Runners-Up (4 games, 2 goals)
Copa América 1953 (PER): Winners (5 games, 1 goal)
Copa América 1957 (PER): Runners-Up (6 games, 2 goals)
Source: wikipedia & http://www.world-football-legends.co.uk/index.php
Ademir da Guia
Date of Birth: Friday, 3 April 1942
Place of Birth: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Son of Brazilian international Antonio Domingos da Guia, Ademir da Guia was one of Brazil's most talented midfielders in the 1960s and 1970s, although he never received as much international recognition as his abilites deserved. Starting his career with Rio side Bangu, it was his move to Palmeiras in 1961 that led to one of the most successful playing careers with one club of any player in the world.
In a sixteen year spell with Palmeiras, Ademir da Guia played an astonishing club record 866 senior games and scored more than 150 goals. Alongside this remarkable record of service, he won numerous domestic honours. Five São Paulo State Championships were won, alongside one Brazilian Cup. Palmeiras also enjoyed two victories in the Torneio Roberto Gomes Pedrosa, a forerunner to the Brazilian National Championship, and two victories in the official National Championship in 1972 and 1973.
Despite the domestic success, Ademir da Guia's international career did not take off. Having played a handful of internationals in the mid-1960s, he dropped out of favour and missed out on the World Cup success in 1970. Forcing his way back into the team in the 1970s, he made the World Cup squad in 1974 as Brazil tried to defend their title, but was left on the bench until Brazil had lost their grip on the trophy. His only World Cup appearance came in the Third Place Play-Off defeat to Poland, his last appearance for the national team.
Ademir da Guia retired from football in 1977, aged 35, and is recognised as Palmeiras' most successful player of all time. After several years away from the game, he returned to Palmeiras to coach their youth team. He did not go on to a senior coaching career, working as a union representative for professional athletes in São Paulo before being elected on to São Paulo council in 2004.
INTERNATIONAL CAREER Years: 1965-74
Appearances: 9 Goals: 0
Debut: 07/09/1965 v Uruguay (H) W 3-0
Last Cap: 06/07/1974 v Poland (N, FRG) L 0-1
World Cup 1974 (FRG): 4th place (1 game, 0 goals)
No club tournament will look big when compared to the Champions League. Doesn't mean it's a crap tournament.
The UEFA Cup may no longer have most of Europe's most famous clubs in it but there are still enough quality teams competing to draw interest. This season you have Aston Villa, CSKA, Man City, Milan, Valencia and now Zenit plus a few wild cards... more than enough quality to make it a very good tournament. I often find myself enjoying the UEFA Cup final more than I do the Champions League final.
Oddly enough so do I. It's probably me but it seems like the UEFA Cup teams play more to win than not to lose.
In fact, when I read the following too quickly, I immediately thought of Baggio. His career was sandwiched between Italy's WC wins in 82 and 06, yest he finished semifinalist in 90, finalist in 94, and quarterfinalist in 98. I have to think that in my lifetime, he's the best player that I never saw lift any major international trophies (besides UEFA CUP, I suppose ).
That's one I was thinking of as well.
Bernd Schuster is another player who's talent would be linked to a lot of big trophies. He had that early taste with the 1980 W. German side, but (and this was much his own doing) not much else.
# EURO European Championship: 1980 with Germany
# Cup Winners' Cup: 1982
# Copa del Rey: 1981, 1983, 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992
# Spanish Championship: 1985, 1989, 1990
For someone with his talent, his CV should be a lot better. One of the great creative players of his generation.
Schuster does not belong in this thread. If he won those things you mentioned then he should be excluded by the criteria for this thread. This thread is not about those players who should have won more than they did.
Baggio also never played in a single European Championship before. Italy would have been strong enough to lift the 1992 trophy(if they qualified).
We could have won at Euro 96 if Sacchi wasn't a knob. He left Baggio and Signori at home.
I think he does-I don't rate the Cup Winners Cup that high. So now look at his career:
He turns pro in 1978; plays two matches in Euro 1980 and that's it. This is a career that spans 1978-1997. Two matches for his medal and then...nothing.
Paul van Himst and Robbie Rensenbrink are also outstanding players who outside of the Cup Winners Cup didn't win anything "big." Again, I understand the place this cup had back then, but really, I think it's fair to say they didn't win anything "big."
Two decisive matches that were enough for him to be voted player of the tournament, at the age of just 20. Besides, winning the Euros is not "anything big"?
He definitely could have won much more with the national team, and boy, we really could have done with a fit Schuster in 82 and 86, but still, even in his rather short international career, he won more and had a stronger impact than most players will ever have.
"Nothing" for Schuster?
Cup Winners Cup not "big"?
What exactly do you consider to be "big"?
If you're going to say Champions League, World Cup and EURO/Copa America/etc and nothing more then the point of this thread would be worthless because there'd be a laundry list of names you could place on here.
For me, domestic league or domestic cup is a "big" enough trophy. I'm sure players who have winners medals would agree. Players who have no winners medals would agree even more.
Matthew Le Tissier still appears to be the biggest name given the criteria set by the thread starter. That's what makes this topic so interesting, the challenge of trying to find a high profile player who has won absolutely nothing as a professional. Readjusting the criteria to fit ones needs simply defeats the purpose.
Reading is fundamental. Did you even look at the criteria that the OP outlined?
Everyone is ignoring the definitions laid down by the threadstarter and just posting any old crap they feel like.
Copa America, Libertadores, Euro, European Cup/CL, and World Cup. These are the big trophies. Period. These are the tournaments were legends are made.
And as far as "reading"-that's right, I am taking issue with the criteria. Do you really think any great player worth his salt thinks, "well, right crashed out of Euro, didn't get to a World Cup final -but hey I won a UEFA Cup-I've won big things!" Get real. It is absolutely fair to say, "Roberto Baggio never won any thing big."
As far as Schuster, yes I'm fully aware of how good he was in those two matches. But at the end of the day, it was only two matches, and I think he's a special case that while technically doesn't meet the criteria set down in the thread, fits a kind, "honorable mention," as he never won anything big for the next 17 years. Considering that his career was 19 years...you get the drift?
And one last bit: spare me the links with quotes from players, coaches, etc., noting how "special" it was to win the Cup Winners Cup. It's not that I don't think it wasn't important-it just not a comparable stage to what I think are "big" trophies.
Then why not start a new thread and have discussions with your own criteria laid down for everyone to think about?
Roberto Baggio. That little bit of luck needed to win something seemed to always elude him at the most crucial momments.
Yeah, UEFA Cup is a good thing to win but it is not a major title. That is a tournament were 2nd class sides from all leagues in Europe attend to and later gets crapped down the losers of the round of 16 of the CL. You can't really call that a major tournament, eh?
A honorable mention that could be added would be Anthony de Avila from Colombia. He was one of the best strikers in the 80's and 90's but was even more unluckier then Baggio. He also possesses a sad record : he has appeared in 4 Copa Libertadores finals, 3 with America de Cali and 1 with Barcelona of Guayaquil, and didn't win a single one.
I'm sure I'm forgetting some, but here would be my short list, with Baggio getting the vote for no.1
Roger Milla (Has ANC medals..tough, but I think he makes the list)
Paul Van Himst
Also, Carlos Valderrama was mentioned earlier but I have to bring him up again. The guy only won domestic titles in Colombia, France, and USA, and won South American footballer of the year twice. He's also on the FIFA 100 -but he astonishingly never won a Copa Libertadores or Copa America.
He's one of those guys, who if he had been born in Brazil or Argentina probably would have won a World Cup.
Eric Cantona? are you serious? How many premiership titles did he win?
Johnny Haynes, Wilf Mannion and Tom Finney all won nothing of note.
he was talented , but had issues with coaches, also france was in dark period of football, which has shadowed his credibility. this period had one the most talented french strikers too
we will never know how good he would have been had he progressed normally
Gotta, gotta be El Magico Gonzalez. Check this out: http://nomoreonionbags.com/blog/?p=18
Your JM González is absolutely fantastic.
And I hadn't heard about him .
Have my vote.