I agree with James and Schwuppe Cafu already has indiv. awards to not be included in this list (WC Best XI, WPOY and SAPOTY votes in many seasons, Bola de Prata, etc)
Doesn't mention assists in CL. Although it has some caveats, I made in other thread an overview. Ranks among the best in CL too. https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/threads/all-time-dutch-xi.1980905/page-4#post-27129025
Archives --> Serie A 99/00 --> Squad List Roma/Milan --> Change the year in the URL bar (9900, 0001, 0102 etc.)
I agree with most of what you said, my point with the Balon D'or is not that Giggs or Scholes never won it (I don't think anyone outside of Manchester can try to tell you a year they deserved to win it with a straight face), its that to my knowledge neither one ever even got a single vote. All kinds of guys have gotten votes: Makaay, Larsson, Kahveci, Basturk, Diop, Baraja, Schnieder, Tommasi etc.
Scholes received nominations in 2000, 2001, 2003, 2004 and 2007. Never a vote indeed. Giggs received votes in 1993 (9th place, 9 pts), 1997 (28th, 4 pts), 1999 (21th, 3 pts), 2007 (30th, 1 pt) 2009 (14th, 11 pts) Nominations in 2000, 2001, 2002 Bit strange that he was nominated in 2002. That wasn't an extremely good year for him while left-winger Pires had a very good year and did not receive a nomination.
Well, whoever ranked Cafu as #2 right-back of all time and Giggs as #4 left-winger of all time has no clue what they're talking about. The common characteristic I see among Cafu, Zanetti and Giggs is that they were fast and functional but rarely breathtaking (at least not in the big games), which is an important element to make all-season teams. Not playing the WC or Euro also hurts Giggs, for Zanetti he also underperformed for Argentina at the WCs, only his match agasint England in 98 is memorable for that great goal.
Another player that came to mind that fits this thread was Edgar Davids. He got some awards for his national team play (and a few Balon D'or votes for Euro 2000) but no team of the years etc despite being an all time great midfielder. Now it is very hard for defensive midfielders to get team of the year awards or other individual awards. Guys like Viera and Keane only got England player of the year awards in the biggest goalscoring years, 00/01 for Viera and 99/00 for Keane (Not sure if these were truly there best years of not, they were not there teams most successful years), and Davids never had a big goalscoring year at Juventus. He did have more goals during his Ajax days but I do not think he was thought of as a top midfielder in the world yet. So what were Davids best years, with Zidane 97-00 or with Nedved in 01-03, or were his Ajax days underrated by pundits because he was more of an unknown.
He scored more for Ajax because that was the playing style of the team and because they scored in their own league an enormous amount of goals. I'd say that he was for Ajax not one of the main stars (in that case I think about Overmars, Litmanen/Bergkamp) and the defensive plaudits were taken by Rijkaard and Blind. Unfortunately, his lowish amount of games prevented him from being rated. Was frequently injured as well. I also think that most of his fame is based on what he did for national team at tournaments.
The iconic moment of Giggs' career is an absolutely astonishing run and finish to score the winning goal against title rivals Arsenal in the FA Cup semifinal during United's treble season. That obviously doesn't qualify him for any awards, but the accusation that Giggs is 'functional but rarely breathtaking' is quite strange. If anything, something closer to the opposite is true. He hit very high levels performance wise, but never consistently over any one campaign.
In case of Cafu I think the assist stats are not complete. The source I posted yesterday mentions Cafu on 11 assists (which bases it on yearbooks and dates back to 1992). Kicker has him down with 2 assists in 03/04. http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/chleague/vereine/2003-04/21431/vereinsspieler_cafu.html
I agree with your assessment of Giggs, flashes of total brilliance, but not consistent throughout the year. I doubt functional but rarely breathtaking would make Del Piero cry.
Yes, I see soccer-europe has 4-4 He had also one in 07/08. That makes 11 assists in 55 UCL games. But why did you never understand the love for Cafu?
In all those years he had never a season with high level and consistency? On what do you base that? Classic wingers are/were by definition not very consistent (in his prime). For a winger he was very consistent I'd say. Who was consistent? Figo? Beckham? Beckham was also regularly invisible in some league games during his prime. Just a thought.
I think it's because of his mug. Either that or the plethora of things that I already wrote on the first page.
You mention some evidence on first page. You also said that you did not understand it during career. I guess that was impression based.
Oh that's what you meant, sorry. I never remember watching some true alltime great player (to be fair that might be the case for most side backs so Cafu is easily one in his position) in Cafu and can't recall that he ever was seen as one until his career was nearly over. I didn't have any ratings or suchlike at hand back then but they kind of support my impression afterwards.
The seasons where he most consistently influenced the outcomes of games were 93/94 and 96/97, but he did not do anything in Europe during these seasons. His best season in Europe (98) was his worst in the EPL. At least in my opinion, one reason Beckham got more accolades was that the offensive seemed to run through him more than Giggs, Giggs was more like an amazing luxury player that could explode and take over, but was not necessary. With Figo I would say that at the end of his time at Barca and his first year in Madrid (before Zidane arrived) he was the man, everything ran though him. These were his best seasons when he won WPOY and the Balon Do'r.
Yes, and defensively he wasn't much better as R. Carlos unlike what most think. He only looked more intelligent. Carlos was very spectacular and very much seen as all-time great although his free kicks were overrated in my opinion.
Again, is this based on something? According to the book I mentioned he had in 93/94 6 game winning goals, his career high. Wasn't he great in 1995/1996? Remember the FA Cup final
Obviously Roberto Carlos was by far the highest rated full backs outside of the internet - in 'real life' among casual fans and pundits. Maybe it was different in England, Italy etc. but that's what it was like in Austria and Germany. He had more 1st place Balon D'Or votes than Ronaldo in '02, so I guess it wasn't.
You are agreeing with me, my point was his two best domestic seasons were 93/94 and 95/96, but these were not his his best seasons in Europe, that was 98/99 which was a weak domestic season for him.
[The other issue that Scholes had as far as being recognised was (akin to Johnny Haynes to a certain extent) was that he wasn't everyone's "cup of tea" as a player: he didn't do seventeen pointless step-overs in a row or try to play "keepy-uppy" for two minutes in the middle of the park. Some fans and football cultures seem to think that you can't be a "true great" (or at least a "near-great") if you don't snort half the "coke" production of Colombia up yer nose or shag at least six different "birds" per week IMO. Or play for/represent their favourite club or NT...]