Germany vs. Italy

Discussion in 'UEFA and Europe' started by Astan, Mar 11, 2009.

  1. Astan

    Astan New Member

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  2. hackespitze123

    hackespitze123 Member

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    Time will tell. Bundesliga teams need to use this chance first, and continue to close the gap (in the last three years, the BL outperformed the Seria A). But even if they manage to overtake the Serie A, it will be even more difficult to establish themselves in the top 3.

    But the BL used to be in the top 3 of the UEFA rankings for most of its existence, only in the last few years the league had fallen behind. But UEFA coefficient points are one thing, CL performances another. With the exception of Bayern, the top clubs in Italy still have considerably more money than the top clubs in Germany, and are much more competitive as a result. The BL is a much more even league, which actually hurts the league in Europe, since it's the elite clubs that represent the league there.

    So in the CL, I actually expect the Serie A to continue to outperform the BL, at least short - mid term, but as far as the league as a whole is concerned (CL + UEFA Cup), things could get interesting.
  3. SportBoy333

    SportBoy333 Member

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    Germany wouldnt be able to pass Italy if they get teams like Hoffenheim, Hertha Berlin and Leverkusen as their Champions League reps while Italy gets the same old teams like Inter, Milan, Juve, Roma. Like the previous poster said, the balance of Germany is what will prevent them from passing Italy right now. You have to hope for teams like Fiorentina, Napoli, Genoa, etc. to overtake Roma, Milan, Juve for Germany to have a better chance to pass them.
  4. Astan

    Astan New Member

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    Well if you get Hertha, Wolfsburg and Hoffenheim in the CL they might drop out quickly. But then you would perhaps get Bayern, Leverkusen, Stuttgart, Werder or HSV in the UEFA-Cup.
    German teams traditionally take the UEFA-Cup very seriously. Unlike other teams those from Germany have fielded their best squads in the UEFA-Cup and got a good amout of points there.
    Nobody believes that the top-4 in Germany are as good as the top-4 in Italy, but in Europe strenght in depth counts too. It may be enough to do the job.


  5. hackespitze123

    hackespitze123 Member

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    Traditionally, German clubs actually didn't take the UEFA Cup seriously ever since it lost most of its prestige. There is a reason why Beckenbauer called it a "loser's cup", for example. Only in recent years, there has been a change of attitude, after the horror stories in the German media about Romania and other smaller leagues overtaking the BL in forseeable future.

    From the financial point of view, the UEFA Cup is as unattractive for most BL clubs as it is for clubs of the other big leagues, for example. But fortunately, most clubs have understood the importance of the competition for the league these days, and usually try to do well in the competition.
  6. Cirdan

    Cirdan Member

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    Italys CL teams had a horrible draw both this and last season in the 2nd round... also, starting next season there will be additional bonus points for reaching the CL second round, which will benefit the Italians.

    Nevertheless, there's a big chance... especially if Werder, Hamburg and Bayern manage to gather a couple more points this season. Not that I think we really deserve it at this point - Italy 3 CL 2nd round teams in each of the last 3 seasons, Germany 1. It's mostly Italys disregard for the UEFA Cup that opens this chance - 3 teams out in first round last season in particular.
  7. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator Staff Member

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    We shouldn't forget the new bonus points allocation.

    This season we're currently 6.5 points behind Italy.
    http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/ccoef2009.html

    That's nearly our difference in BPs (Italy have currently 7 more BPS than Germany)

    Next year this difference would be 16 BP (or slightly less, because you get 2 BP for entering EL GS), because clubs get 4 BP for entering CL GS and 4 BP! for reaching the round of last 16.

    So Germany need to get better results in CL (one or two teams like Bayern) and/or vastly superior results in the EL.
  8. GriffinGunner

    GriffinGunner Member

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    For everything the Bundesliga has done right on behalf of their clubs and their fans I would love to see this happen. The Bundesliga has essentially become the role model for modern, entertaining atmosphere while Italy has slipped to the other extreme. I fear the previous posters are correct, however, in that the system is still too heavily tilted to prevent Germany's step up without better performances from their ECL representatives.

    I do think, and hope, UEFA's eventual next overhaul of the ECL will find a way to neutralize this advantage, even if it means eliminating the 4th CL berth for any nation. In the meantime, I certainly hope my Arsenal continue to help the cause by knocking out Italian teams whenever possible! ;)
  9. dvandyke

    dvandyke Member

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    Neither deserve a forth spot. They are miles behind the big two leagues.
  10. Vandervaart

    Vandervaart Member

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    You're right, soccer in Germany, England and the Netherlands is on the rise, as teams invest/have invested in new, modern, family friendly stadiums, resulting in higher attendances, while Italian teams have neglected upgrading their stadiums.
  11. hackespitze123

    hackespitze123 Member

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    Let me guess, both should give one of their CL spots to the EPL.
  12. MilanOnlyMilan

    MilanOnlyMilan Member

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    Why exactly Serie A is miles behind La liga? I can't think of any advantage they have over Serie A. The quality of football is absolutely the same, the depth is better in Serie A, also there are more big clubs in Italy (which makes the league more exciting), much better atmosphere during the matches. Not to mention most matches between clubs from these countries ends in favour of the italians. Strange thing is that i see these kind of statements of La Liga being better than Serie A very often...
    As for the topic, i really think germans should be trying to do better in Europe with the quota they have at the moment, before thinking how to take one place from Italy.
  13. Canadian Azzurri

    Canadian Azzurri Member

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    They should give all 32 spots to the EPL.
  14. zippy85

    zippy85 Red Card

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    Germany got stung this year with the extra uefa cup spot, it brings the coifficent down, england got it too, look slike platini wants to bring our coifficent down and germany's to help his beloved italy keep third place.
  15. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

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    That extra UEFA Cup spot for England is actually inflating your coefficient. Man City has 17 coefficient points compared to the England average of 12.4.
  16. zippy85

    zippy85 Red Card

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    Thats looking at it singular though, look at the whole package, our score gets divided by 9 instead of 8.
  17. Lusankya

    Lusankya Moderator Staff Member

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    :confused:
    Yes and England would have 17 points less, which is more than your average number of points, so without Man City you would have a worse coefficient than now.
  18. The Jitty Slitter

    The Jitty Slitter Moderator Staff Member

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  19. hackespitze123

    hackespitze123 Member

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  20. Cirdan

    Cirdan Member

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    I disagree.

    Now, I am German, I certainly hope that we'll get another CL birth and I'm quite happy that for the first time in 6 or 7 years, it looks like we might have a chance to get it in the forseeable future.

    But honestly, the way our representatives played in the last 3 years, we don't deserve it. Bayern is ok, but otherwise... only one of 6 teams (3 times Bremen, Hamburg, Stuttgart, Schalke) managed to get into the next round, and even Schalke only got there because Valencia managed to lose against Trondheim twice. Now, I don't really expect that every German club will always make it to the knock out stage, but if we want another CL birth, the non-Bayern-clubs should be able to do it about half of the time (especially considering Bremens favourable seeding), 1 very lucky qualification in 6 is not enough.

    So. I do think additional bonus points for 2nd round qualification is a good idea. UEFA Cup should count, it shows that the Bundesliga has in-depth-strength, but we shouldn't get a CL birth from Italy when they lose 1 of 4 teams before the knock out rounds and we lose 2 of 3 every year.
  21. Offlimp

    Offlimp New Member

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    I think germanys has big chances. Clubs like Wolfsburg, Hamburg, Leverkusen and Hoffenheim have the resources to build great teams. Those teams are unexperienced and will have it difficult in the next few years in the CL but they can definitley rise.
    I think the depth of the Bundesliga is about the same as of Serie A. The top of Serie A is still better but on the decline.
    Milan, Inter, Roma, Juventus, Fiorentina are still better then Bayern, Hamburg, Leverkusen, Hoffenheim and Wolfsburg but these german clubs have great potential.
    I think germany has to get points especially in the Uefa Cup. Its a good competition to collect points. I think CL will be dominated by the english football and Uefa Cup will decide who will be nr.3 league.
  22. GriffinGunner

    GriffinGunner Member

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    Quality? Sure. Equally entertaining? Not to me.
    Debatable.
    I can agree with this, but at least it seems a greater variety of mid-table teams can break into the top four of Spain more often or more easily, compared to the oligopoly enjoyed in Italy.
    From the TV perspective - No way, no how. I can't stand Serie A matches on TV primarily for this reason. Spain has its dead arenas as well but your average Serie A contest not played at Milan or Rome tends to look and sound like a minor league contest, to me. New venues and more fans attending are desperately needed over there.
    Seeing as the latter can only happen via results in the former...
  23. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

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    New venues don't improve atmosphere. In fact, often it has the opposite effect. The examples are too numerous to even begin listing.

    Atmosphere in Spain is only good at the home stadia of the smaller La Liga clubs. In Italy the atmosphere is mostly good everywhere.
  24. zippy85

    zippy85 Red Card

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    Sometimes new grounds can improve tv sound quality because the sound equipment can be established in better positions instead of half a mile inbetween the pitch and fans, plus tv equipment can be installed at more elevated positions.
  25. GriffinGunner

    GriffinGunner Member

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    Fine, I'll rephrase to better represent my meaning: Improved venues with closer seating, more compact forms and full seats would be far more appealing on TV. Some venues don't look worthy of pro teams (Empoli, Siena), while others feature what appears to be handfuls of fans throughout the sides of a vacuous athletic stadium.

    And while some Italian ultras can add volume and flare it appears that's only possible because they're isolated from the action and the other fans by many, many meters, which begs the question "what's the point?" If families truly are afraid to go to games because of such characters then I'd hardly say that's worth the added atmosphere. It's supposed to be a football match, not a gang rally.

    One man's opinion, anyway. Cheers.

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