Genius begins great works; labour alone finishes them. Twente 2012-2013 Season

Source?

Both are protestant so what is the difference in religion?

The reference to European identity as call to give away the national heritage is typical indeed. They know they are calling the shots and with a false call to the European sentiment they hope the others can be surrendered.

 

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachsenross

Wikipedia is not the best source, but as a history and European studies student who did a paper on this I have not found any literature that speaks against the sources cited in Wikipedia. I can name you those sources tomorrow if you really want me too, no time today.

Lower Saxon culture was dominant in one form in the Hanse, and in the other form in the everyday life of Northern Germany and the Eastern parts of the Netherlands in the late middle ages, but also through trade with other parts of Europe along the baltic such as Scandinavia or the baltic states, and to a lesser degree around the North Sea and the landlocked parts of Germany. The Hanse went down economically and was replaced by Dutch and later English merchants, and Central Germany became economically more important. The reformation started in those parts of Germany (Luther lived in what today is known as Saxony after all), leading to the culture of that part of the country replacing the (Low) Saxon culture as the dominant one while protestantism spread. In that sense the religion of Northern Germany is a Central German export.

I am not saying that Twente is German. I am saying that they themselves feel Saxon, which is what we would call Lower Saxon. Just as between Silesian culture at the Polish, German and Czech respective borders, or Catalonian culture between Andorra, Spain and France there are cultural paralells. Stating that is not a call for a Germanification of the Netherlands. Because if we would do that we should give the region between Aachen and Cologne to Belgium or the Netherlands, too, given they speak a Low-Franconia dialect very much related to today's Dutch, and were heavily influenced by migration from and between both those countries (IE Belgian protestants wanting to get away from Spanish rule moved via today's Germany most of the time when they moved to the Northern Netherlands).

We can easily break this up and look at different national cultures, what i describes happened in most European nation states, also if you look at the single national cultures.

So you want to tell me that Dutch identity did not start dominating different, more regional identities in the 19th century? The same can be said with Polish/Silesian, Czech/Moravian, German/Bavarian, Spanish/Galicien, French/Alsacian, Italian/Sicilian, ..., so I'd argue it's a European phenomenon. Sometimes the outcome was different than the regional culture partly giving way for the national one, look at the cases of Scotland and Wales, Austria within Germany, Slovakia and Czech Republic/Czechoslovakia or Catalunya. Another example for this would be the Netherlandish kingdom of 1815-1830.

Sorry for the OT, hope nobody minds.

 

Are you sure? The German wikipedia also says that this lowe saxon dialect in that region dates from earlier eras.

 

Yeah you're right. But my question was directed to the difference between the German part of Saxony and 'Central Germany'.



Interesting though why other parts of Saxony are predominantly protestant and reformed throughout history while Twente region is not. Any idea?

 

Osnabrück (Lowr Saxony) and Münster (NRW) are also catholic, even though most of Westfalia and Lower Saxony is not. In Germany it's because Saxony was split up in ~300 different principalities back then and the peace of Westfalia established that the principality would stay with the belief of their duke or prince, meaning that the regions of Germany are not very coherent religiously. Lower Saxony has Catholic cities such as Osnabrück and Hildesheim, the only major German Dutch-reformed region with Bentheim, but most of the rest is Lutheran.

The Rhineland, Bavaria, Baden and Swabia are Catholic, but Palatinate, in the middle of all of them, is protestant. That's also why the 30 years war, which was a religious conflict as far as Germany is concerned, was so devastating. Unlike the civil war in the US or the Dutch-Belgian conflict of 1830 it wasn't two halfs against each other, but very local conflicts.

 

I experienced a few of them in Fürth as well (last weekend), where they caused some trouble after the game (together with their friends from Nuremberg - no, I don't confuse them with the Ultras). Until then I didn't know that Schalke has got hools like i.e. Cologne, HSV, Berlin etc.

Is there any rivalry between H96 & Schalke (I don't know about)?

Entirely Catholic?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religionen_in_Deutschland

Well, I live in Bavaria ... and the Catholics are clearly a minority in my metropolitan region.

 

No rivalry between H96 and any team besides Brunswick, Bremen, and to lesser degrees Cottbus and Frankfurt. We have had a friendship with Bielefeld, but I do not think that was the reason for S04 hools being in Enschede last night. Probably just old hools wanting to feel like they were in their 20s again, old opponents and such.

And I was talking about Bavaria as the place where the Bavarians live, basically excluding Swabians and Frankonians.

 

Started the reformation in central Germany?

 

As far as Germany is concerned yes, given that by a big margin most German protestants are Lutheran and Luther lived in Saxony and Thuringia. That sorta omits the influence Huss (Czech Republic) and Calvin (Switzerland) had, but the German reformation started in Central Germany, yes (and went on to influence Skandinavia greatly).

Not counting Czechia and the Low Countries, which at the time were parts of the German empire as well.

 

Well, I know it came from a little disagreement but this little history discussion about the area of Holland in which Enschede is located has been quite interesting.

 

I don't know why they would want to be part of the issues that was going on but I would assume some Schalke supporters would enjoy being in Enschede for a big match due to their friendship with Twente. That would just be my guess though. I know little.

 

I still don't buy the cultural relativism that some shown here ("cultural shifts always occurred in Europe"), which is in the end nothing but a veil for subjecting the Netherlands again under German supremacy. As excuse they say 'these traditions are much older than the Dutch state'. So what, the cultural elite once spoke French and even before that Spanish in our country and despised the 'peasant language' that would eventually evolve in Dutch - luckily it never evolved in the same linguistic problems as in Belgium where the French speaking clericals and haute finance also despised the 'barbaric' Dutch language. Not every tradition is worthy to upheld.

The cited 'multiple identities' also existed in the Holy Roman Empire, as part of the divide and rule strategy, but it was still an empire.

And the wikipedia does not show that Twentsche horse was only called in that way after WW2. Cited wikipedia does not state that.

My 2 cents.

 

Yeah in the end we will come and steal your bicycles again, you just wait!

(hint: I would like to see Germany break up into smaller regions politically actually, but it is easier to say we want to conquer everything, especially Twente, than to actually ask people for their opinions on complex issues...)

 

Well, some of them, sure, but not those I saw on Oude Markt.

 

In a way the current European Union is the successor to the Empire.

 

In what way? Should we kick Bulgaria, Greece and Romania out then? They were never part of the Empire.

 

Seeing how PSV has the exact same number two years in a row, I would wonder if they locked in a certain amount to leave the rest to give more people a chance to possibly attend a match.

Just thinking out loud.

 

yeah, I hate the small bad apples for any club that want to ruin it for everyone else.

 

that Desmond Tutu dance video is lovely, made my day (of course the result with Heerenveen did as well...)
dunno how many chances is Castaignos gonna need before he scores...after the Europa league made some misses again...
but 18 points out of 6 games is amazing, cant wait for next weekend already !