Actually, I'm agnostic . I've had already previously many discussions about the theme, especially in the comparison between Maldini and Roberto Carlos, cited several times in the same rankings, and in spite the theme of the defensive capacity usually diminishes Roberto Carlos at that level, I feel his offensive power has left an inequable track in the history over legendary players like Nilton Santos and give him a slightly advantage in the final scale.
So what, man?... What the ass has to do with the trousers?... If Ronaldo had 21 when he started for a Brz WC, Garrincha had 24 in 58 & he just didn't play in 54 at the age 20, first, because at that time everybody thought he was a cripple, second because players used to mature way later in the old times (they had chilhood: they fished, they chased birds, flew kites, they lived in no grim favelas & - most important - football didn't make anybody rich). It was more of a passion than a profession. Ronaldo on the other hand grew up in a filthy favela at a time when football had already become an important source of income. No, you aren't. I was not acquainted yet with this 'cynical' facet of yours. I thought - as you said - that that had already happened in 1994 when he never played but (according to you) became 'world champion' ... You're crazy, man. In 1958 Garrincha was already acclaimed as the best right-wing ever. Bye-bye, Stanley Matthews. 'Got owned'?...'50-year old'?...'some' exhibition game?... When was that? 1956? Venue: Wembley? At the adversary's home?...With Brazil regrouping after the 1954 WC?...I give the due value to friendlies, but aren't you among the ones who say that 'a friendly is just a friendly'?... Besides in 1956 Matthews was 41 (not 50) in a time players started late & consquently ended their careers late. (You say things like that and lose all credibility). And Brazil hadn't even started playing yet... After 1958 England & Matthews went into oblivion. KKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK Who saw both playing knows who was who. Tell me another Italian fairy tale. Now, you went nuts!!!.... Romário never played in Italy. Romário would have squeezed Maldini's balls & he would never guess who did it. Yep, just contemporaries. Nilton Santos played against Pelé, Coutinho, Zito, Pepe, Altafini, Dino Sani, Dida, Evaristo, Gérson, Canhoteiro etc etc Not to mention Puskas, Matthews, Charlton, Best etc etc. God blessed the great Maldini making Garrincha & Pelé to be born in another era. Thank goodness, I can't believe it! ...
Sort of odd describing as the main virtues of a defender his attacking virtues, when usually - not discarding of course the advantages of an offensive 'lateral' - one would think that his main assets would be from the middle line back. Of course that Roberto Carlos was already a 'volante' in a time in which football didn't have wings anymore & adopted way more defensive schemes, liberating its side backs to advance. But let's remember that who in a WC scale pioneerely put all that in practice was 'grandpa' Nilton Santos. He was the 1st to disobey the establishment ('get back!', 'get back', cried Feola desperately before he scored the 2nd goal against Austria in 58, as shown in the YouTube clip I posted). Here it is again: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr5LRukMm4c"]YouTube- Nilton Santos marca gol na estréia do Brasil na Copa de 58[/ame] Before him (of course there must have had exceptions, but not in a world cup scale) everybody obediently 'stayed' in their positions He opened the way to ALL offensive side backs of the future (Carlos Alberto, Nelinho, Júnior, Leandro, Maldini, Roberto Carlos). That's why he is the king & patron saint of all side defenders. Without Nilton, they'd simply wouldn't exist.
Actually we cannot compare the two - they won games with different styles... no wonder Brasil never lost whenever Pele and Garrincha played together! Two giants of Soccer History.
I've heard so many people say that. However, based on whatever little video evidence exists in the public domain, Garrincha does not seem to measure up to even Pele's ankles.
Sheer illusion. It's because Garrincha was not the 'classic', encyclopedic genius like Di Stéfano, Puskas or Pelé who used up all the arsenal of football tricks (although he could become one, as he did in 1962). He just reserved for the public his funniest, unexpected & lethal tricks. That's why he always repeated the same dribble - just to show that it was unmarkable. An anti-genius, a clown. All he wanted was to dismantle, demoralize & make laugh - he didn't intend to play 'football'. That was too boring for him. In that sense he was even superior to Pelé, Di Stéfano & Kocsis (and Old_Carioca might have hit it on the nail). He was not joking when he said at the end of the 1958 WC: 'Wow, is it over?...And the home games'? ('Ué, acabou? E o segundo turno?') Garrincha was the first & only dadaïst in football. The closest player to approach his style was Maradona but this one was still quite serious to him. Garrincha didn't care for 'winning' World Cups (although without him we wouldn't win them) - all he wanted was to dribble (win the game, of course) & fu*k. Titles were just an appendix.
Wrong, he became a professional footballer in 1953! He wasn’t “selecao bound” yet in 54, he made his selecao debut in 55! On the other hand, Ronaldo made his selecao debut in 94 at age 17 (6 months plus before turning 18) and as I’ve already stated, impressed many to the point Perreira couldn’t leave him out of the squad! I would never disrespect such a legendary player but I won’t simply allow nostalgia to blind me! He was the go to guy and became a regular after 94! Oh really, is this why Matthews had won the Ballon D’Or in 56? This is the same Garrincha who wasn’t a starter in the selecao? Get your story right, brother! My mistake Matthews was only 41 and not 50 LOL! I’ve never seen Paolo Maldini at age 40 get owned by another 40 year old! But N. Santos in his prime (age 31) got owned by a 41 year old, WOOOOOOOOW! And 9 out of 10 will say: Paolo Maldini was better! Baresi and Costacurta didn’t play in the 94 UCL Final game against the mighty Barcelona “Dream Team” and who was the man who stepped up to the plate? San Paolo Maldini, that’s who! Milan won 4-0 and Maldini annihilated Romario! 1994 WC, the great Baresi gets hurt after Italy’s second game and doesn’t return until the final. Guess who was left in charge to marshal the defensive line? Maldini, of course! The Italian once again OWNED Romario in the 94 WC final! Romario finally scored against Italy and Maldini in 97 (French Tournament) the scored ended 3-3! And do you know why ROmario finally scored? Well thanks to RONALDO! R9 drew the double team and assisted Romario for the finish! R9 also scored in this game and was without a doubt the best player of the game! Maldini faced: Gullit, Matthaus, Zico, Van Basten, Baggio, Maradona, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Messi, C. Ronaldo, Figo, Raul, and of course: O FENOMENO! In other words: Maldini faced real competition!
it was desailly where has defended romario and desailly has owned him......desailly olso was sucessful in offensive with 1 goal..romario has scored in 10 games only 2 goals inclusive the final..so holding him scoreless wasnt total suprising..
ronaldo wasnt good enough to be a starter..this is poor enough..1 goal in 330 minutes isnt a killer too.....nistelroy was the keyoffensive player and he was very sucessful..but anyway in a debatte best players counting up the title in his records is laughable.. example: a player gerd müller where won 4 domestic german leaque titles was a keyplayer in this 4 seasons from start to end 30+goal seasons .... do you think ronaldos single goal means something???in relation of players where did a great job the whole season ??nistelroy... ok..if you point out without ronaldos goal , no championship for real madrid..(there is still good chance that a other player anstood ronaldo in 330 minutes could be have archived more..)
Dagoods, that's why you & a few others 'hand of god' mates pass this ugly impression to the world that Latin Americans are dishonest. (I know you aren’t, OK? ) But I referred to Garrincha starting for Brazil in a WC (World Cup, heard well?). See what I wrote: WC, Dagoods, WC. And you insist: 'debut' in 94?... And I have to keep repeating (sigh): ‘What kind of 'debut' was that if he didn't play a single game in 94??? Duhhh’... His REAL debut in a WC was in 98 when he was 21 (only 3 years less than Garrincha). Besides tell me why starting earlier or later in a WC makes someone better than anybody – and I’ll buy you a chicha. Hmmmm, Now you changed to ‘after’ 94… Well, ‘after’ 94 Ronaldo would only have a decent ‘start’ for Brazil in 1997 at the Copa América in Bolivia against…Bolivia (in the final Bolivia was robbed in the 1st Brz goal by Edmundo & put a ball in Brz’s post right after their 1st tying goal). You ‘won’t allow nostalgia blind you’?... So you are a ‘little kid’ & only ‘old timers’ like me are nostalgic? OK ... BTW aren’t you at age 27?... Maldini’s peak was 14/23 years ago (1987/1996)!!!... Precisely when you were an infant & teen (5 to 14), wasn’t it?... Seventeen of the twenty-four Maldini’s titles… - which btw were in their majority club honours & that’s why Maldini is in so high esteem in Europe, since for them their clubs are ‘the best thing in the universe’ (and obviously Dagoods as a colonized & underdeveloped Latin American naïvely buys into that) - fact BTW that masks another simple & astounding one: that while Nilton Santos was world champion in 1958 & 1962 Maldini never won NOTHING at world level …were disputed when our Forum mate Dagoods was just waking for life: Maldini’s peak: Champions league: 1988/1989, 1989/1990, 1993/1994 UEFA Super Cup: 1989, 1990, 1994 Serie A: 1987/1988, 1991/1992, 1992/1993, 1993/1994, 1995/1996 Supercoppa Italiana (5): 1988, 1992, 1993, 1994 Intercontinental Cup (2): 1989, 1990 FIFA World Cup: Runner-up 1994, 3rd Place 1990 The same nostalgy I presumably felt for Nilton Santos he feels now for Maldini and Ronaldo who had his peak during Dagoods late adolescence (1996/1999 - he was 14 to 17) and who like so many ‘alices’ spent most of his years in ‘wonderland’ (Europe). Confess, Dagoods!... Maldini & Ronaldo are your unforgettable adolescence passions! Your ‘madonnas’! (or you preferred Back street boys)? lol ... 42-year-old Maldini, huh?!... And I’m the nostalgic one!!! LOL I don’t want to know about ‘Ballon D’Ors’ (those are journalist polls), Dagoods!... I want to know about WC titles - that are decided on the pitch. How many does your Sir Stanley Matthews have?... Mistake?… Say it with me: that was a lame colonized…lie. List Stanley Matthews & Maldini’s WC titles, sum them, send an e-mail to Nilton Santos communicating the ‘fact’ & I’ll tell you who was owned.LOL In a 'Maradona-type' 30-year-olders-rigged Internet poll? LOL There you come again with your domestic Euro ‘club’s’ stats… And there you come also with your old ‘injuries’ excuse. What Maldini had to ‘marshal’ was his swollen head back home – that's a FACT! lol … Funny – I remember seeing Romário (& not Maldini) lifting the Cup & - must have been a vision – the little mulatto guy being declared the best player of the Cup. Gotta be the age, eyes getting tired.LOL There come you again with those insignificant games, don’t you get ashamed?... Let’s talk big games: do you know why R9 wasn’t 1998 world champion?*... *(shhht! tell you a secret: because Romário wasn’t there!) Sorry: Gérson, Beckenbauer, Gérson, Tostão, Puskas, Rivera, Zito, Matthews, Müller, Charlton, Breitner, Rivelino, Best & of course: O REI! were ‘a bit’ stronger group.
What? watch the game again and you'll see how Maldini faced Romario throughout the game. And Desailly was in the middle of the park destroying Barcelona’s midfield Romario is one of the top Strikers ever and on this day Maldini was superior, simple as that!
Ronaldo had knee surgery (bones spurs) after the WC. A surgery he required during the WC but he still played anyways and became Brazil's best offensive option. could, would, what if, etc. Bottom line is: RONALDO's goal did count towards RM winning la liga!
You're basing your preference in the fact that Nilton Santos was a pioneer, nevertheless, you should note that be a pioneer doesn't signify to be the best ever necessarily. If was thus, nobody never could surpass him by the simple fact to be the pioneer when, actually, can appear players that surpass his conditions whenever (as I think is Roberto Carlos). The pioneers like Nilton Santos promote the apparition of new type of players, then whoever could surpass their first inspiration. They can be venerated and recognized as legends by the contribution of their incursion in a new characteristic of his position, but not because it will impede new surpass them.
Are you going to call me names now? I’m not an Argie Well it just seems that old school (you folks) tend to overhype your legends and well I’m the guy who goes around and calls it the way it is. The mighty Garrincha became a pro in 1953 and didn’t get his first cap until 1955 (WOW it took him 2 years) and then it wasn’t until 1957 until he got his next cap! Uhmmm, this is probably why he began the 1958 WC as a bench player and not a first choice starter. O Fenomeno had 3 caps under his belt prior to the 94 WC and played another game after the 94 WC! Played 5 games in 95 and 4 in 96 (by then he was an absolute starter) and of course he just took off in 97! Therefore, Ronaldo was a lot younger when he played for the selecao, didn’t need 5 years to become a first choice starter, made his first WC at a younger age, and was the go to guy for Brazil at a younger age! So before overhyping Garrincha’s myth, please take a look at the facts! I grew up watching the Milan side of the late 80’s and 90’s yes I was just a little boy but I’ve seen those games over and over again! And just to be clear on something I don’t favor all the modern legends, not at all. I’ve seen just about 7-10 Roberto Rivelino games and I can tell you he was better than Ronaldinho. Heck I even consider Rivaldo to be better than Dinho. I don’t even rate C. Ronaldo that highly and I’m not completely sold on Messi either. Cannavaro winning all the awards in 2006 was bloody appalling, IMHO! I prefer the Figueroa’s and the Passarella’s over this guy. I like my CBs to be capable of passing and as we S. Americans call it: “Salir jugando de atras” which translates to: a defender being capable of coming out from the back and going forward/join the attack. And Yes I also believe Pele > Maradona so I’m not biased at all but I certainly and candidly belive that Paolo Maldini was better than N. Santos! The Brazilian played alongside Titans and managed to win 2 WCs! The Italian was SOLID at International Level, made history at club level, and faced tougher competition. Oh you wicked wicked little monkey! Come on now don’t be biased, The Second World War interrupted his career/prime years and there was no WC competition in the 40’s! And what did he do 120 mins? Nada, because he was owned by Maldini! I wish El Lobo had taken him; I wanted to see RO-RO on the pitch but unfortunately… Like I said before, Maldini faced tougher competition!
I agree. But have you seen Nilton Santos playing?... I'm sort of unsuspicious because he played for Botafogo, a team simply hated by my Flamengo. 'Sort of' because I'm Brazilian too (as Nilton). But who saw knows. It wasn't by chance that Nilton Santos was called 'The Encyclopaedia' in a time of sacred monsters in football. He was absolutely unbeatable defensively and always stole balls from his opponents with high technique, flair & intelligence: a ball in his feet always meant the beginning of a dangerous attack. Domingos da Guia might have been the maestro, but for sure Nilton was the 1st violin of the Brz defense. The respect Pelé had for him was immense. Once in a Santos x Botafogo in the 60's in São Paulo (I saw that game live on TV Tupi), Pelé passed by him as a hurricane doing the trick Ronaldinho does all the time 'covering' his opponents - this time with one long aerial touch. When Pelé got ready to 'receive' the ball in his chest & kick - with NS already 'in his back mirror' - where was the ball??? Mantaining his back to the King & always looking forward Nilton simply stretched his leg back & with the heel retrieved the ball 'covering' the King back - not giving time for the latter even notice it & immediately starting a counterattack. The whole Pacaembu (Pelé's home) gave him one of the most enthusiastic standing ovations given to an adversary's player in the traditional stadium. That & much more happened all the time during his games. The goal shown in the video against Austria in 58 is sheer class. Frankly, I've seen Maldini play: simply a monster. But, I can assure you (and a throng of experts who saw both playing will confirm): he didn't have half the technique of Nilton Santos.
I could see him only by videos obviously, also I could revise many articles of the epoch as you quote, and that's the mainly form which I rate player at overall. I understand the impressive capacity he had and that's the reason because I rate him the third best left back ever (just behind Maldini and Roberto Carlos).
I agree totally with KK. N.Santos was regarded as the most skillful (ever) fullback. So talent wise NSantos > Maldini and Carlos. If I have to rate them ? ................. Atatck ............. Defense N. Santos .......9......................8.25= 17.25 Maldini............7.5...................8.75 = 16.25 Carlos.............8.5...................7.75= 16.25
I understand. 2010 though is a very suspicious epoch in order to historically compare ‘today's’ players (i.e, players who acted since 1990, which is the average duration of a healthy player career) with players of the 'past' (or who acted before 1990). We are still too close to the last 20 years in order to judge with impartiality. Grosso modo in 1990 (decade in which Romário, Maldini, Roberto Carlos, Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Henry, Zidane started playing) the average age of this (or any) Forum observer was at the most 10 - age in which one starts 'understanding' the game. And not only rationally understanding but also feeling it. Better (or worse): transforming it in...passion. I don’t know if that’s your case (being 30 or less) but that seems to be the case of guys like Dagoods (27) - whose reactions are often typical of the impassionate fan for whom ‘nobody ever played like the guys of my era’. Without giving us anything concrete with which to entertain that hypothesis. I’m not saying that we should abstain from giving our opinion but that they should be based on something more than childish reactions like ‘nine among ten say he’s the best’, or absolutely irrelevant considerations on ‘who started earlier’, or esoteric/spiritualistic phrases like ‘certainly and candidly I believe that Paolo Maldini was better than N. Santos’ & still want to sound as …impartial. In the case of older observers like me – & they may be as biased as Dagoods, naturally – there are among them experts, journalists, specialized people who saw different eras (including ours) & can get to conclusions based on concrete data (factual observation, testimonies, articles, rare footage, stats analysis etc etc) I myself obviously don’t include myself among them but already consider as a very indicative trait of Nilton Santos superiority over Maldini the fact that he (& his companions, of course) conducted his country to 2 World Cups & the maximum Maldini achieved was a runnerup position against Brazil. Even playing for the most WC wise successful European power. Or that the maximum defense-flawed Roberto Carlos was able to achieve was a title in 2002 – even playing 3 Cups for Number 1 Brazil. And those are concrete data: I’m not saying that Nilton Santos was better than Maldini or RC because he was more good-looking or younger! … Thus one can only explain the up to 30-years-olders preference on the latter (Maldini, RC) by the fact that they played in their times & in highly media-exposed European leagues - and ‘outdated’ Nilton Santos not. What’s totally unfair since the main titles are totally favorable to the 50’s/60’s Botafogo legend. In the case of Garrincha x Matthews the ‘concrete data’ are other, since it’s not fair (I agree, Dagoods) to demand from the latter World Cup titles in the 40’s because of WWII, although he was 23 in 1938 and in 1950 & 1954 he still was in fantastic shape. All experts – English included – agree that Garrincha was the ultimate right-wing, even considering S. Matthews in his 20’s. And there even ain’t any shade of discussion about that.
ANd I concur mate! Garrincha is without a doubt the best RW in the history of this sport and he makes my all-time world xi but I just feel R9, Zizou, and Maldini (modern legends) deserve a tad more respect! Nilton Santos vs R. Carlos? N. Santos all the way! Hey Kong, let me ask you this and please be frank about it! DO you think Cafu is somewhat overrated? Many people are starting to pick him as their first choice RB! I like Cafu but I think he is a tad overrated don't you think? I simply don't see him in the same group as: D. Santos, N. Santos, Facchetti, Maldini, and C. Alberto! Why not? Well, all the aforementioned were superb fullbacks but also became solid centre backs. C. Alberto and D. Santos had no problem adapting to their new roles. I’ve read and been told by fellow Brazilians that N. Santos also became a centre back at the end of his career and he didn’t have a problem holding his own. Obviously, we know Facchetti became a dominant CB and of course Maldini will go down in history as the greatest LB and one of the very best CBs ever! Don’t get me wrong, Cafu was very versatile; capable of playing multiple positions such as RWB, RM, and RAM at will. However, I don’t think Cafu could have played as a CB; he seemed to lack the skill and concentration required to play in this position. This is probably why he never made the transition. I honestly believe Cafu gets a little bit too much credit and this is mainly because of his nationality and vastly impressive silverware collection. This is very unfortunate for a guy like Lilian Thuram (he fits the mold of the legends above) don’t you think? Thuram was a superb RB and a rock solid CB but somehow doesn’t get the respect he deserves, IMHO. What do you think KK?
kingkong1 is still so funny,RONALDO of high position is liable to be attacked,And kingkong1 must attacked the fenomeno when he see the words about "ronaldo" ,kingkong1,Lula da Sillva is greatest Brazilian ,he is a better football fans than you,unbelievable you say ronaldo not in brazil team XI ever N. Santos ?He had be forgot by world people,at the same, all people still remembered R.Carlos,but how many people still remembered Carlos.A? Also about romario and ronaldo,they are all 90s player,but now how many people still remembered romario?Yes,many Brazilian maybe say romario better than ronaldo even as good as maradona,but in world romario never has a high position,in 1999,World Soccer 20th century Top100 players,ronaldo was 13th,romario was 26th,and NOW，people talk about the 90s,always say the 90s belong to ronaldo,baggio or zidane,how many people still remembered romario?he scored 1000 goals+,but maradona's one goal maybe greater than romario's all 1000 goals,also ronaldo's dribbling,technique ,speed when he played in cruzeiro ,psv,barca,Inter milan will be always talked by people FIFA best player of the 2002 world cup was kahn,ronaldo was 2nd,rivaldo was 4th,ronaldinho was 5th,so in 2002 WC: ronaldo>rivaldo>ronaldinho