But the deal with man-marking is, when it is supposed to be effective, to be ultra-tight on the marked player, meaning that "his shadow" will always try to get to the ball before the marked player gets there. If the marker manages that, the skills of the marked player - be it thunder speed, exceptional ball control, whatever - is neutralized, as he is not getting to the ball. In a zonal defense system, this "destructive" yet effective ultra tight marking is nearly impossible. Notice how Maradona was effectively man-marked in the 1986 World Cup final. He didn't do that much compared to the games leading up to the final (except the game winning pass for the third goal, of course).
And of course he created the play that resulted in the free kick that gave Argentina the first goal. I think the 86 WC was one of the great chess matches ever played. One thing Maradona did was move wide and take Matthaus with him. This created spaces that Burruchaga exploited, -which was clear in the second goal- and just as important, it pretty much took Matthaus out of his game in terms of creating, and he was almost as important to Germany as Maradona was to Argentina. Only when Germany had their backs against the wall did Matthaus leave Maradona in order to start building play, and led the comeback. But that also led to Maradona having just enough space to create the winning goal. I think the way to beat the type of strong, physical man-marking that was prevalent in the 80s is to move out of position and take your marker with you to create spaces and mess up the defense, and also to make them pay when they foul. (as man marking does usually lead to more fouling). As forwards today move around and rotate positions much more, and as so many goals today come from set plays, I think those are some of the reasons why man marking has become less efficient than zone marking and went out of fashion for the most part. Today you see man marking mostly on set plays, but usually not during the course of the game. You hardly ever see a player follow another one all over the field, as guys like Gentile used to do.
That is certainly all true. The point I was trying to make though was to show that for a star player back in the old days, life was not as easy as Doc Exec originally stated. His argument was that today a Ronaldinho has far less time and space than the glorious stars of the past. Yet while there was no pressing and the game less pacy in the past (but not as much as some always claim), due to rigid and tight man-marking, star players might in some cases have had less time and space to work their magic than those of today. I was not trying to defend man-marking contra zonal marking. There are of course valid reasons why man-marking has come out of fashion. I didn't want to advocate a return to man-marking.
[FONT="]In the first half Matthaus was assigned to shadow Maradona all around the pitch, but with Forster waiting just behind if Diego escaped, and Jakobs as the third recourse as well. So, you had the Germany's most versatile player and two of Germany most solid defenders given the task to stop him for the first 45 minutes. In contrast to the other teams in that cup howewer, West Germany seemed to succeed on it, although a foul from behind to Diego (as ASF correctly pointed out) earned Matthaus a yellow card - which in turn was the direct result of Argentina’s first goal. At the start of the second half, Argentina scored again. The Germans obsessed with Maradona were leaving too much space for the other players. That's why Diego accomplished his mission: he made occupied and concerned half of Germany’s defense, which in turn enabled enough space for his teammates, most notably Burruchaga, Valdano, and Enrique. Only then, Matthaus leaved his task of shadowing Maradona in order to go up forward, and finally it paid off for his team, as they scored two goals. Another thing I would add is that West Germany were the only team in the cup who didn't use nasty and tough fouls to stop Maradona (a complete opposite to what teams like Korea or Bulgaria did), yet they were the most successful. A bit ironic. This was indeed one of the greatest examples of man-marking. A classic one. There were much worse examples though (I posted a youtube link as an example of that). [/FONT]
Here is a similar video I've found yesterday. I would say even better than the last one I posted. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1xaxAU5FEs&feature=related"]YouTube- La marca de Reyna a Maradona[/ame] Perhaps you will be able to see it.
My top - 30. Pelé Garrincha Zico Romário Didi Zizinho Nilton Santos Rivelino Ronaldo Leonidas Junior Falcão Carlos Alberto Torres Domingos da Guia Leandro Ademir da Guia Zagallo (as coach and player) Djalma Santos Socrates Jairzinho Gerson Reinaldo Tostão Ronaldinho Roberto Dinamite Bebeto Rivaldo Careca Friedenreich Ademir Menezes
This is not true and something that German fans like to spout without really thinking about it. Argentina won that final match by playing like a well-synced unit, but it was the other players benefitting off the turbulence created by Maradona - first goal was a foul on him, second goal the split pass to release Burruchaga and Valdano, the third that masterful assist in the middle of three German players, making the pass while on the air. Also a fifty-fity penalty call when Schumacher clipped him, which the referee let go early on the match. A player involved in all three goals in a WC final cannot be said to have been man-marked out of that match.
That would be more suitable term However, a great player do not need to "dominate" the game thru out 90mins in order to convince his greatness - bottom line he is still human and could not be 100% great in all games. The most important thing is that when given chances, or in a split of seconds, the great player would be able to squeeze it in or to produce his magic at that right timing to win game. If he could dominate, and produce magic every minute, football game would become like basketball with 90goals score???
The Flamengo fans hate Ronaldo because it is not going to play with them? He promised he would play with you instead signed a contract with Corinthians. Poor things to make yourself cry, I've realized that it is useless to discuss with you. Pelè+Zico+Romario+Garrincha+all unnecessary Brazilian players who played only in Brazil= 1/2 DIEGO ARMANDO MARADONA
and my first Brazilian si Ronaldo 1Ronaldo Pelè played only on the stupid Brazilian championship in an era football ridiculous. other 100000000Pelè=1/100Maradona
To independent from the unanimous cultural selection of Garrincha as Brazil’s second greatest ever, now I see the possibility of overrating. Garrincha become a regular starter at 24 years old in 1957 and finished his prime period after the 1962 World Cup was ended. The span which start counting his first game in 1957 and ended at 1962 FIFA World Cup final, Brazil international first level matches were available 75 games but Garrincha participated only 37 matches or around 50 %, not sure how many games he left the match due to injury but I just was never informed he got big injury in aforementioned period and at least he was benched many times because of Julinho’s shine. In overall international country career according to Lucas Gomes’ thread, Garrincha assists only 13 times when plus his 12 goals and divided by total team goals, Garrincha fully participated in only 17 % less than all Brazilian top legendary midfielder likes Didi, Zizinho, Rivelino and definitely Zico. As Garrincha has been considered as one of the best individual performers in history of World Cup, the overall performance outside World Cup tournament was spent in a short prime. As above statistical provision, Zico has much longer prime and should be rated ahead of Garrincha if criteria of world cup proportion is not set very high against overall career. Ronaldo, he has other great twice Copa America tournament and most prominent is the 1999 tournament while Garrincha also participated once in 1959 made twice assists and score no goal in four games. If count only great number of major tournament, Ronaldo lead Garrincha by one. Besides, Ronaldo achieved phenomenon performance in friendly match, scoring 8 goals and made 4 assists on only five consecutive games between 1996 and 1997. Honesty, not said Ronaldo must be better than Garrincha but I’m not see the transparent clearance between them in international level. In club career, it is not easy since assists and rating record of Garrincha is unavailable. Wikipedia specified he was the best player of Carioca in three years (1957, 1961 and 1962) and best player of Taca Brasil in 1962 but its source is unknown. If consider the years he could not win the Carioca individual award (1959 and 1960), there was no very big name star as a contendor when Didi was not there because being struggling at Real Madrid. Edvaldo Dida of Flamengo is a choice I think he was in his peak career as an intersected period of his short caps (1958 – 1961). Once again, it is not clear Garrincha’s club is better than Ronaldo. They have one season as phenomenon peak (1962 for Garrincha and 1996 – 1997 for Ronaldo), the remainders are generally seen as similar amount and level of performance.
since garrincha and r9 played in different positions, i wouldn't fixate performance too much on just goals and assists. for what i've read, i understand that garrincha would contribute much in defense. this is clearly not the case for ronaldo etc.
This would be mine: 01) Pelé 02) Zico 03) Garrincha / Ronaldo 05) Romário 06) Ronaldinho 07) Zizinho 08) Didi 09) Rivelino 10) Leónidas 11) Rivaldo / Falcao 13) Nílton Santos 14) Jairzinho 15) Tostao 16) Djalma Santos 17) Gérson / Sócrates 19) Carlos Alberto 20) Arthur Friedenreich 21) Ademir (de Menezes) 22) Roberto Carlos 23) Cafú 24) Ademir (da Guia) 25) Júnior 26) Julinho 27) Danilo Alvim / Toninho Cerezo 29) Domingos (da Guia) 30) Careca
If compare them directly from stats will be a problem but as I said, Garrincha's impact level in term of assist is also much lower than other Top Brazilian midfielders.
agree if strictly go for goals+assists then Pele Zico Ronaldo were top3 and Garrincha would hardly make into TOP10! Often people refer to Garrincha greatness was for his special dribbling ball control skills that against most DF/opponents plus his shooting, FK, crossing in from the side (a true greatest winger)
there are 3 players i would really like to know more about. 2 of them are on your list. -zizinho -bauer -domingo da guia i have no idea how to rate them. any info on these mystery legends is very much appreciated.
I forgot to write that Garrincha could not even help Botafogo to qualify for Taca Brasil except 1962 because only Carioca champion is eligible. That means he missed 1959 – 1961 Taca Brasil tournament despite being spending his prime period. He just primarily played in Campeonato Carioca and Torneio Rio Sao-Paolo.
well in general Ronaldo 98 +2002 = Garrincha 58+62 (more or less) - but Ronaldo 06 >= Garrincha 66 (even both were not fully fit there) forget about his WC94 on bench = no count Like I said what made most people amazed was Garrincha's dribbling , ball control, kicking, shooting in "his own" style ... Ronaldo at his best was also great in dribbling but it was a bit short peak They shared the similar fate ... one is badly cut short for his "alcoholic behavior" and other was injury prone
I don't know much about Garincha dribbling skills and never watch him played so... Zico and Ronaldo at their peak were beast.Zico lacks his tittle and Ronaldo was destroyed by injuries when he was too young(22).