garrincha vs. ronaldo vs. zico - who was the second brazilian best ever ?

what do You think guys ???

In my opinion, those 3 are comparable players and it's not easy to decide, who is the best.

maybe longevity is a weaker point of ronaldo, but when we comapre also their: prime, skills, big games, club & nt carrer, impact, winning games by himself, I don't think, that he is worse in any of this categories.

so, who will take it ???

Exactly, I feel the second spot behind Pelé is between Zico, Garrincha, Ronaldo, Didí and Zizinho.

Probably, I'd take Garrincha.

I also would take Garrincha as my number 2.
2. Garrincha
3. Zico
4. Romário
5. Zizinho
6. Didi
7. Ronaldo

1 Pele king of football Greatest ever
2 Ronaldo fenomeno In the 1990s he was best ever
3 Zico white pele for me:zico>maradona

But we talking it now ,the time is not yet ripe,I meaning that FIFA will give ronaldo a fair comment when he retire，I hope ronaldo can won Copa Libertadores de América with great Corinthians Paulista,and played in 2010 World Cup,before 2002 World cup ,all people think ronaldo can't played good,but ronaldo scored 8 goals,though ronaldo in 1998 WC > ronaldo in 2002 WC,but ronaldo still prove himself was best in world.In 2006 WC,ronaldo become best scorer in WC of all time,in 2010 WC,I hope dunga can change his viewpoint.No ronaldo， no world cup.

1. Pele
2. Ronaldo
3. Zico, Garrincha
4. Didi, Ronaldinho
5. Leonidas, Rivelino

My Brazilian Top 25 would be:

1. PELÉ
2. GARRINCHA
3. ZICO
4. DIDÍ
5. ZIZINHO
6. RONALDO
7. LEONIDAS
8. RIVELINO
9. ROMÁRIO
10. RONALDINHO
11. RIVALDO
12. FALCAO
13. TOSTAO
14. GÉRSON
15. CARLOS ALBERTO
16. ZITO
17. ROBERTO CARLOS
18. JAIRZINHO
19. DJALMA SANTOS
20. DA GUIA, Domingos
21. CAFÚ
22. SÓCRATES
23. NILTON SANTOS
24. FRIEDENREICH, Arthur
25. CLODOALDO

Roberto Carlos the left back that played for Palmeiras and Real Madrid at place 17 and ahead of Nilton Santos??
Wow... that's too much... Nilton Santos and Junior (Flamengo 80's) were better than him...

Yes, I consider Roberto Carlos the best Brazilian left back ever over Nilton Santos.

I would have to say Ronaldo!


why? He faced tougher competition than Garrincha and was able to win more with the selecao than Garrincha and Zico combined!

By applying the same criteria you are using for Ronaldo against Garrincha, to Zico as well, then we can make the conclusion that Zico must be ranked higher, don't you think?

Zico simply faced tougher competition than Ronaldo, which can be proved using the WCs, thus he is better than Ronaldo. Remember, I'm using your criteria.

58 - was a bench player before becoming a starter
94 - WC winner, made the squad leaving out R. Carlos and Rivaldo.

62 - Again, Pele was the main star but got injured. Garrincha became the protagonist and had an excellent tournament.
98 - At age 21 Ronaldo took his team to the WC finals 4 goals - 4 assists, Player of the tournament.

66 - Garrincha was done...
02 - After injuries, he returns and wins his 2nd WC, TOP scorer!

2006 - After more injuries and unfit RONALDO became the protagonist of his team, leading the way in scoring.

Ronaldo also played in 3 Copa Americas, reaching 3 Copa America Finals and winning two (Player of the tournament in one of them).

but he also played in a much much much better team(s) than Ronaldo and failed to win any silverware!

Sounds very different how was. In 1958 Garrincha was starter almost all the tournament (just missed the first two matches of the groups phase) being one of the stars of the champion team along with Pelé, Didí, Vavá and Zagallo while Ronaldo didn't play any minute in 1994.

Agreed, but let's not forget that from his three participations, he was fit only once, in 1982. Besides, as I said, Zico's competition was more difficult than Ronaldo's, either from a player's point of view, either if we are talking about teams they faced. That's why I think that pretty much makes those things even.

Remember, Ronaldo never faced teams like Argentina's of 1978, Italy's of 1982 or France's of 1986, all legendary great WC sides. The only truly great team which Ronaldo's Brazil met on it's path, more or less comparable to the ones mentioned above, is France of 1998, although it's still a stretch. I would say the same about the players they had to face as well.

Ronaldo at age 17 was already labeled "the next big thing", he was living up to expectations in the Brazilian League and his potential was more than evident for everyone to see. Remember, Ronaldo’s great display was the main reason why R. Carlos (an older player) and Rivaldo (back to back Brazilian League Silver Ball Winner) were excluded.
Ronaldo, not playing a single minute in the 94 WC was a coaching decision and a very bad one!

Garrincha was 28-29 when he became the protagonist (Brazil’s main player) and this came after Pele’s injury.
Ronaldo by age 21 was without a doubt the best player on earth and a 2 time FIFA Player of the Year winner. R9 wasn’t 100% fit in this World Cup but he still managed to take his team to the finals and we all know what took place on the eve of the WC Final don’t we?
But he bounced back in 2002!

Yes Zico was healthy in 1982, had a decent tournament but failed to dominate, IMHO. As a matter of fact, Falcao outshone him in 1982 thus earning the 1982 FIFA WC Silver Ball Award.

Pele also played alongside other titans and legends of this game but this didn’t keep him from being or becoming the main guy/protagonist. Zico played in a tougher, yes and I concur with that to some extent. However, the 90’s were also tough the only way they were able to slow down Ronaldo was by breaking him. He was able to win more at the International level, with lesser talent, and with numerous injuries/knee surgeries under his belt. This is probably why Zico, himself, considers him the best Brazilian player after Pele and he’s right!

I was only referring about the specific comparison you did among Garrincha in 1958 and Ronaldo in 1994, that sounded wrong favored to Ronaldo. Evidently, being Garrincha a figure in 1958 and Ronaldo just a reserve player who never played in 1994, it's a fact Garrincha has advantage on that comparison.

In general speaking, many would consider Garincha as 2nd best Brazilian.

The 3rd spot became very competitive between Zico and Ronaldo

For me; TOP10

1- Pele
2- Garrincha

3- Zico = Ronaldo

5- Didi = Zizinho

7- Rivelino = Leonedas

9- Jairzinho = Romario

Well, I would agree that Ronaldo at his prime was a more dangerous, feared player than Zico was, despite the latter playing more up front than it was usual for a typical playmaker. Howewer, using almost solely the NT criteria and success to rank one over the other is not completely fair, simply because Zico's club career is as good as it can be and simply destroys Ronaldo's one. That, I would say, makes up for his lack of a great NT career.

As for the comparison between their WC successes, bear in mind that Zico had more unfavorable circumstances. Besides playing against tougher teams, which you admitted, and being fit in only one tournament, his first team was in a rebuilding state with new players emerging who would end up being part of the 1982 team. Take a look at the following ''major'' players they faced during their WC careers as well:
Zico: Fillol, Ardiles, Passarella, Kempes, Boniek, Lato, Dasaev, Blohin, Dalglish, Maradona, Zoff, Scirea, Gentile, Tardelli, Paolo Rossi, Pat Jennings, Platini, Giresse

Ronaldo: Zamorano, Schmeichel, Michael Laudrup, Bergkamp, Zidane, Beckham, Scholes, Kahn, Henry, Desailly, Thuram

By looking at those lists, I think Zico's wins without any shadow of doubt.

Lastly, talking about his performance in 1982, I agree that Falcao was Brazil's most consistent player. I myself wrote a short post about that:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18697544&postcount=10

The only thing that can, and should be used against Zico when we are talking about his WC career, is the fact that he could not carry the infamous Brazil team from 1982 to the triumph. Against Italy, he had the chance to cement his legend forever, but he came up short when it mattered the most. Despite having a very good assist to Socrates and playing pretty well in the first half, he completely disappeared in the second, although the game was still open. This shows us that he lacked the character, leadership, mental determination and the hunger to win at all costs (his major weakness, I would say), something which, when talking about his generation, Maradona had plenty.

Other than that, he was not in favorable situations, while Ronaldo was never that much unlucky in the WC. Howewer, he must receive the credit for being determinant in the latter stages in 2002, despite that WC being of much lower quality than 1982.

Who was FIFA best player of world cup ever?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_awards
World Cup Golden Ball Silver Ball Bronze Ball
1930 Uruguay Jose Nasazzi Guillermo Stábile José Leandro Andrade
1934 Italy Giuseppe Meazza Ricardo Zamora Oldřich Nejedlý
1938 France Leônidas Silvio Piola György Sárosi
1950 Brazil Zizinho[1] Juan Schiaffino Ademir
1954 Switzerland Ferenc Puskás Sándor Kocsis Fritz Walter [2]
1958 Sweden Didi Pelé [3] Raymond Kopa
1962 Chile Garrincha[2] Josef Masopust Leonel Sánchez
1966 England Bobby Charlton Bobby Moore Eusébio
1970 Mexico Pelé Gérson Bobby Moore
1974 West Germany Johan Cruijff Franz Beckenbauer Kazimierz Deyna
1978 Argentina Mario Kempes Paolo Rossi Dirceu
This Award was first awarded in 1982.
World Cup Golden Ball Silver Ball Bronze Ball
1982 Spain Paolo Rossi Falcão Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
1986 Mexico Diego Maradona Harald Schumacher Preben Elkjær
1990 Italy Salvatore Schillaci Lothar Matthäus Diego Maradona
1994 USA Romário Roberto Baggio Hristo Stoichkov
1998 France Ronaldo Davor Šuker Lilian Thuram
2002 Korea/Japan Oliver Kahn Ronaldo Hong Myung-Bo
2006 Germany Zinedine Zidane Fabio Cannavaro Andrea Pirlo

So :
1 Ronaldo/Pele/Paolo Rossi 1 Golden Ball 1 Silver Ball
2 Maradona 1 Golden Ball 1 Bronze Ball
3 Jose Nasazzi
Giuseppe Meazza
Zizinho
Ferenc Puskás
Didi
Garrincha
Bobby Charlton
Johan Cruijff
Kempes
Salvatore Schillaci
Romário
Kahn
Zidane

PS:
Pele 58 62 70 World cup winner
Ronaldo 94 02 World cup winner 1998 runner-up


Top Scorer in WC EVER

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_records
Most goals scored, overall finals :ronaldo

Yes but the point I was trying to make was that both made the teams as bench players. Ronaldo, never got his chance to shine and Garrincha did. People forget that making the Brazilian selecao is extremely difficult. There’s a list of great players that were never given enough games or the opportunity to perform (i.e. Ademir Da Guia, Alex, Diego) due to the amount of competition they faced.

Making the Brazilian NT is an achievement itself with so much talent competing for a spot.