garrincha vs. ronaldo vs. zico - who was the second brazilian best ever ?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by darek27, Feb 10, 2010.

  1. darek27

    darek27 Member

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    what do You think guys ???

    In my opinion, those 3 are comparable players and it's not easy to decide, who is the best.

    maybe longevity is a weaker point of ronaldo, but when we comapre also their: prime, skills, big games, club & nt carrer, impact, winning games by himself, I don't think, that he is worse in any of this categories.

    so, who will take it ???


  2. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    How about Didi or Zizinho?
  3. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

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    Exactly, I feel the second spot behind Pelé is between Zico, Garrincha, Ronaldo, Didí and Zizinho.

    Probably, I'd take Garrincha.
  4. ManiacButcher

    ManiacButcher Member

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    I also would take Garrincha as my number 2.
    2. Garrincha
    3. Zico
    4. Romário
    5. Zizinho
    6. Didi
    7. Ronaldo


  5. khan096

    khan096 New Member

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    1 Pele king of football Greatest ever
    2 Ronaldo fenomeno In the 1990s he was best ever
    3 Zico white pele for me:zico>maradona

    But we talking it now ,the time is not yet ripe,I meaning that FIFA will give ronaldo a fair comment when he retire,I hope ronaldo can won Copa Libertadores de América with great Corinthians Paulista,and played in 2010 World Cup,before 2002 World cup ,all people think ronaldo can't played good,but ronaldo scored 8 goals,though ronaldo in 1998 WC > ronaldo in 2002 WC,but ronaldo still prove himself was best in world.In 2006 WC,ronaldo become best scorer in WC of all time,in 2010 WC,I hope dunga can change his viewpoint.No ronaldo, no world cup.
    [​IMG]
  6. aguimarães

    aguimarães Member

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    1. Pele
    2. Ronaldo
    3. Zico, Garrincha
    4. Didi, Ronaldinho
    5. Leonidas, Rivelino
  7. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

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    My Brazilian Top 25 would be:

    1. PELÉ
    2. GARRINCHA
    3. ZICO
    4. DIDÍ
    5. ZIZINHO
    6. RONALDO
    7. LEONIDAS
    8. RIVELINO
    9. ROMÁRIO
    10. RONALDINHO
    11. RIVALDO
    12. FALCAO
    13. TOSTAO
    14. GÉRSON
    15. CARLOS ALBERTO
    16. ZITO
    17. ROBERTO CARLOS
    18. JAIRZINHO
    19. DJALMA SANTOS
    20. DA GUIA, Domingos
    21. CAFÚ
    22. SÓCRATES
    23. NILTON SANTOS
    24. FRIEDENREICH, Arthur
    25. CLODOALDO
  8. ManiacButcher

    ManiacButcher Member

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    Roberto Carlos the left back that played for Palmeiras and Real Madrid at place 17 and ahead of Nilton Santos??
    Wow... that's too much... Nilton Santos and Junior (Flamengo 80's) were better than him...
  9. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

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    Yes, I consider Roberto Carlos the best Brazilian left back ever over Nilton Santos.
  10. Dagoods

    Dagoods New Member

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    I would have to say Ronaldo!


    why? He faced tougher competition than Garrincha and was able to win more with the selecao than Garrincha and Zico combined!
  11. comme

    comme Moderator Staff Member

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    Eh? Garrincha won two World Cups.
  12. Triton

    Triton Member

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    By applying the same criteria you are using for Ronaldo against Garrincha, to Zico as well, then we can make the conclusion that Zico must be ranked higher, don't you think?

    Zico simply faced tougher competition than Ronaldo, which can be proved using the WCs, thus he is better than Ronaldo. Remember, I'm using your criteria.
  13. Dagoods

    Dagoods New Member

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    58 - was a bench player before becoming a starter
    94 - WC winner, made the squad leaving out R. Carlos and Rivaldo.

    62 - Again, Pele was the main star but got injured. Garrincha became the protagonist and had an excellent tournament.
    98 - At age 21 Ronaldo took his team to the WC finals 4 goals - 4 assists, Player of the tournament.

    66 - Garrincha was done...
    02 - After injuries, he returns and wins his 2nd WC, TOP scorer!

    2006 - After more injuries and unfit RONALDO became the protagonist of his team, leading the way in scoring.

    Ronaldo also played in 3 Copa Americas, reaching 3 Copa America Finals and winning two (Player of the tournament in one of them).
  14. Dagoods

    Dagoods New Member

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    but he also played in a much much much better team(s) than Ronaldo and failed to win any silverware!
  15. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    LOL! You use more spin than FOX and MSNBC combined.
  16. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

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    Sounds very different how was. In 1958 Garrincha was starter almost all the tournament (just missed the first two matches of the groups phase) being one of the stars of the champion team along with Pelé, Didí, Vavá and Zagallo while Ronaldo didn't play any minute in 1994.
  17. Triton

    Triton Member

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    Agreed, but let's not forget that from his three participations, he was fit only once, in 1982. Besides, as I said, Zico's competition was more difficult than Ronaldo's, either from a player's point of view, either if we are talking about teams they faced. That's why I think that pretty much makes those things even.

    Remember, Ronaldo never faced teams like Argentina's of 1978, Italy's of 1982 or France's of 1986, all legendary great WC sides. The only truly great team which Ronaldo's Brazil met on it's path, more or less comparable to the ones mentioned above, is France of 1998, although it's still a stretch. I would say the same about the players they had to face as well.
  18. Dagoods

    Dagoods New Member

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    Ronaldo at age 17 was already labeled "the next big thing", he was living up to expectations in the Brazilian League and his potential was more than evident for everyone to see. Remember, Ronaldo’s great display was the main reason why R. Carlos (an older player) and Rivaldo (back to back Brazilian League Silver Ball Winner) were excluded.
    Ronaldo, not playing a single minute in the 94 WC was a coaching decision and a very bad one!

    Garrincha was 28-29 when he became the protagonist (Brazil’s main player) and this came after Pele’s injury.
    Ronaldo by age 21 was without a doubt the best player on earth and a 2 time FIFA Player of the Year winner. R9 wasn’t 100% fit in this World Cup but he still managed to take his team to the finals and we all know what took place on the eve of the WC Final don’t we?
    But he bounced back in 2002!
  19. Dagoods

    Dagoods New Member

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    Yes Zico was healthy in 1982, had a decent tournament but failed to dominate, IMHO. As a matter of fact, Falcao outshone him in 1982 thus earning the 1982 FIFA WC Silver Ball Award.

    Pele also played alongside other titans and legends of this game but this didn’t keep him from being or becoming the main guy/protagonist. Zico played in a tougher, yes and I concur with that to some extent. However, the 90’s were also tough the only way they were able to slow down Ronaldo was by breaking him. He was able to win more at the International level, with lesser talent, and with numerous injuries/knee surgeries under his belt. This is probably why Zico, himself, considers him the best Brazilian player after Pele and he’s right!
  20. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

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    I was only referring about the specific comparison you did among Garrincha in 1958 and Ronaldo in 1994, that sounded wrong favored to Ronaldo. Evidently, being Garrincha a figure in 1958 and Ronaldo just a reserve player who never played in 1994, it's a fact Garrincha has advantage on that comparison.
  21. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

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    In general speaking, many would consider Garincha as 2nd best Brazilian.

    The 3rd spot became very competitive between Zico and Ronaldo

    For me; TOP10

    1- Pele
    2- Garrincha

    3- Zico = Ronaldo

    5- Didi = Zizinho

    7- Rivelino = Leonedas

    9- Jairzinho = Romario
  22. Triton

    Triton Member

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    Well, I would agree that Ronaldo at his prime was a more dangerous, feared player than Zico was, despite the latter playing more up front than it was usual for a typical playmaker. Howewer, using almost solely the NT criteria and success to rank one over the other is not completely fair, simply because Zico's club career is as good as it can be and simply destroys Ronaldo's one. That, I would say, makes up for his lack of a great NT career.

    As for the comparison between their WC successes, bear in mind that Zico had more unfavorable circumstances. Besides playing against tougher teams, which you admitted, and being fit in only one tournament, his first team was in a rebuilding state with new players emerging who would end up being part of the 1982 team. Take a look at the following ''major'' players they faced during their WC careers as well:
    Zico: Fillol, Ardiles, Passarella, Kempes, Boniek, Lato, Dasaev, Blohin, Dalglish, Maradona, Zoff, Scirea, Gentile, Tardelli, Paolo Rossi, Pat Jennings, Platini, Giresse

    Ronaldo: Zamorano, Schmeichel, Michael Laudrup, Bergkamp, Zidane, Beckham, Scholes, Kahn, Henry, Desailly, Thuram

    By looking at those lists, I think Zico's wins without any shadow of doubt.

    Lastly, talking about his performance in 1982, I agree that Falcao was Brazil's most consistent player. I myself wrote a short post about that:
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18697544&postcount=10

    The only thing that can, and should be used against Zico when we are talking about his WC career, is the fact that he could not carry the infamous Brazil team from 1982 to the triumph. Against Italy, he had the chance to cement his legend forever, but he came up short when it mattered the most. Despite having a very good assist to Socrates and playing pretty well in the first half, he completely disappeared in the second, although the game was still open. This shows us that he lacked the character, leadership, mental determination and the hunger to win at all costs (his major weakness, I would say), something which, when talking about his generation, Maradona had plenty.

    Other than that, he was not in favorable situations, while Ronaldo was never that much unlucky in the WC. Howewer, he must receive the credit for being determinant in the latter stages in 2002, despite that WC being of much lower quality than 1982.
  23. argentine soccer fan

    argentine soccer fan Moderator Staff Member

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    Roughly speaking, Didi = Zizinho = Falcao = Zico = Ronaldo. Very hard to rate these players against each other. I think Falcao tends to get underrated and he was very close to his contemporary Zico in terms of greatness.
  24. khan096

    khan096 New Member

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    Who was FIFA best player of world cup ever?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_awards
    World Cup Golden Ball Silver Ball Bronze Ball
    1930 Uruguay Jose Nasazzi Guillermo Stábile José Leandro Andrade
    1934 Italy Giuseppe Meazza Ricardo Zamora Oldřich Nejedlý
    1938 France Leônidas Silvio Piola György Sárosi
    1950 Brazil Zizinho[1] Juan Schiaffino Ademir
    1954 Switzerland Ferenc Puskás Sándor Kocsis Fritz Walter [2]
    1958 Sweden Didi Pelé [3] Raymond Kopa
    1962 Chile Garrincha[2] Josef Masopust Leonel Sánchez
    1966 England Bobby Charlton Bobby Moore Eusébio
    1970 Mexico Pelé Gérson Bobby Moore
    1974 West Germany Johan Cruijff Franz Beckenbauer Kazimierz Deyna
    1978 Argentina Mario Kempes Paolo Rossi Dirceu
    This Award was first awarded in 1982.
    World Cup Golden Ball Silver Ball Bronze Ball
    1982 Spain Paolo Rossi Falcão Karl-Heinz Rummenigge
    1986 Mexico Diego Maradona Harald Schumacher Preben Elkjær
    1990 Italy Salvatore Schillaci Lothar Matthäus Diego Maradona
    1994 USA Romário Roberto Baggio Hristo Stoichkov
    1998 France Ronaldo Davor Šuker Lilian Thuram
    2002 Korea/Japan Oliver Kahn Ronaldo Hong Myung-Bo
    2006 Germany Zinedine Zidane Fabio Cannavaro Andrea Pirlo

    So :
    1 Ronaldo/Pele/Paolo Rossi 1 Golden Ball 1 Silver Ball
    2 Maradona 1 Golden Ball 1 Bronze Ball
    3 Jose Nasazzi
    Giuseppe Meazza
    Zizinho
    Ferenc Puskás
    Didi
    Garrincha
    Bobby Charlton
    Johan Cruijff
    Kempes
    Salvatore Schillaci
    Romário
    Kahn
    Zidane

    PS:
    Pele 58 62 70 World cup winner
    Ronaldo 94 02 World cup winner 1998 runner-up


    Top Scorer in WC EVER

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_World_Cup_records
    Most goals scored, overall finals :ronaldo
  25. Dagoods

    Dagoods New Member

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    Yes but the point I was trying to make was that both made the teams as bench players. Ronaldo, never got his chance to shine and Garrincha did. People forget that making the Brazilian selecao is extremely difficult. There’s a list of great players that were never given enough games or the opportunity to perform (i.e. Ademir Da Guia, Alex, Diego) due to the amount of competition they faced.

    Making the Brazilian NT is an achievement itself with so much talent competing for a spot.

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