From the Round of 16 to the Title

Discussion in 'World Cup 2014: General' started by Iranian Monitor, Jan 21, 2014.

  1. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Some teams just don't match up well against a certain teams for whatever reason.
     
  2. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    I don't think Japan and South Korea should be lumped together, although I see it done quite often. To me, they don't exhibit the same style of play and each have different strengths and weaknesses.

    South Korean teams generally play a lot more directly and rely a lot more on kick and run, although I have to admit the Koreans are actually pretty good in switching play and calling it "kick and run" doesn't do their style of play justice. Still, while capable of nice shot-passing combination plays at times, that is not what they rely on generally. Even if the Koreans control the midfield (which is not always the case), it will be because they have moved their defensive line further upfield and are pressing from that area and consequently taking risks at the back. Their build up, however, is not typically very methodical or patient. It doesn't involve a zillion passes. Their closest counterparts, internationally in terms of their style of play, may be the US. In any case, Uruguay might end up beating South Korea, but that is mostly because Korean teams aren't very strong defensively. Even the best Korean teams still have some traces of the teams that could lose 5:0 to Holland in Wc98 or 4:1 to Argentina in Wc2010.

    The Japanese, on the other hand, typically exhibit a lot more short passing plays and feature an Asian version of tiki taka, sometimes jokingly called sushi taka. While the Japanese are capable of playing directly and will do that as well at times, often they will have a methodical build through short passes that sees their lines move upfront together. That doesn't mean Japan will always control the midfield in terms of possession, but that is actual quite key to disrupting and unsettling the Japanese team. If they are denied the chance to control possession and run their nice combination play, Japan will generally do poorly. Conversely, if they are allowed to control possession, they can play real well.

    Even playing well, however, Japan can still lose as we saw against Italy in the Confederations Cup, simply because they aren't as efficient upfront as some other teams are. A team like Uruguay, on the other hand, based on what I have seen, doesn't appear to be very capable in terms of controlling the midfield, but they are certainly efficient with one of the best offensive tandems in Suarez and Cavini. Hence, against a team like Uruguay, the Japanese need not only to make sure they are allowed to play well, but that they are also efficient enough upfront to score more often than Uruguay on the chances that will come their way.

    It is hard to say who will do better or worse against a team like Uruguay, but generally speaking, Japan will be the side controlling the game against Uruguay regardless of what turns out to be the score. S.Korea might not control the game as much, but may end up forcing Uruguay
     
  3. jay luis

    jay luis Member+

    Sep 14, 2013
    Corona, Nyc
    Club:
    Deportivo Cali
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    A.BRAZIL,CROATIA
    B. HOLLAND,CHILE
    C.COLOMBIA,IVORY C
    D.ITALY,URUGUAY
    E.FRANCE,ECUADOR
    F.ARGENTINA,NIGERIA
    G.GERMANY,PORTUGAL
    H.BELGIUM,RUSSIA
    16
    1.BRAZIL DEF CHILE
    2.COLOMBIA DEF URUGUAY
    3.NIGERIA DEF FRANCE
    4.GERMANY DEF RUSSIA
    5.HOLLAND DEF CROATIA
    6.ITALY DEF IVORY C
    7.ARGENTINA DEF ECUADOR
    8.BELGIUM DEF PORTUGAL

    QUARTER FINALS
    1. BRAZIL DEF COLOMBIA
    2.GERMANY DEF NIGERIA
    3.HOLLAND DEF ITALY
    4. ARGENTINA DEF BELGIUM

    SEMIS
    1. BRASIL DEF GERMANY
    2. ARGENTINA DEF HOLLAND
    FINAL
    BRAZIL WINS :alien::alien:
     
  4. gaucho16

    gaucho16 Member

    Jul 2, 2012
    Good point (the game was actually 4-2). But that is still a small sample size. All we really have to go off with these teams are small sample sizes. Even smaller if you want to factor in actual competitive matches and not friendlys.

    Hopefully we can get this match-up in the 2nd round and see how the game goes. I think Japan vs. Columbia may be a good precursor to how Japan would look against a team with Uruguay's playing style.
     
  5. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    I think fans typically just underrate Conmebol sides period forgetting that Conmebol's second tier traditionally fair's better than any other federations top tier save for UEFA, and is better than every second tier everywhere. Teams like Paraguay, Ecuador, Chile, and Uruguay have all had little trouble advancing out of group play in recent years, and rarely look overmatched even in R16 defeats. Conmebol's second tier is damn good, Chile likely would have been a quarterfinalist in '10 if not for their terrible R16 draw (and Paraguay and Uruguay were quarterfinalists and Semifinalists respectively). There were very few sides in that cup I would have taken over them in the R16's (probably only Brazil, Argentina, Germany, and Spain), unfortunately for them, in both '10 and '14 they've fallen into a situation where runner up in the group means a match up with a side that has their number.

    I am expecting every Conmebol side to advance this time other than Ecuador, and if Ecuador's forward hadn't died in that Qatar hell last summer, I might have picked them as well.
     
  6. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Interesting, I'm fairly confident in a Mexico win or draw. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
     
  7. Bosnian Diamond

    Bosnian Diamond Member+

    Aug 9, 2011
    Mars
    Club:
    FK Velez
    Nat'l Team:
    Bosnia-Herzegovina
    One of those friendlies we were up 2-0 and then subbed in our 3rd string keeper and then youi guys scored 3 goals on him (one of which came in the last minute or two of the game).

    These friendlies honestly have no signifance at all on what will happen in the 2014 World Cup and are only giving you false hope.
     
  8. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Well, Bosnia jumped ahead 2:0 on 2 goals scored in a span of 10 minutes, both in the 2nd half, and we then scored 3 goals in reply. Your goalie did get subbed out due to injury but let us assume that your regular goalie would have done better (might have with respect to one of our goals). That game still didn’t tell me that Bosnia was really better than Iran, especially since the game was in Bosnia in front of 20,000+ Bosnian fans. In fact, when you look at it in context, with Iran having defeated Bosnia 3 times before that, you naturally could reach the opposite conclusion. Especially since Iran actually was fielding a side that didn’t feature some of the key players that hitherto had been the mainstay of Iran’s team for many years including in our then World Cup qualifiers (e.g., no Karimi, no Mahdavikia, etc), while Bosnia fielded pretty much the exact same team it was fielding in its World Cup qualifiers.

    However, I have said that that I actually rate Bosnia slightly better than Iran right now, even if I predict Iran will defeat Bosnia. I predict that result in large measure because I think our players will have a confidence against Bosnia that they won’t have against a team they don’t have the same record against.

    P.S.

    The other advantage Iran has against Bosnia frankly is that your coach appears to be an idiot. There are very few teams Bosnia has played as often as Iran! What’s more, Bosnia doesn’t have a good record against Iran and is now facing Iran in the same World Cup group, in Bosnia’s first ever World Cup. No offense, but if your coach doesn’t know anything about Iran (a team Bosnia has played 5times officially, twice in Bosnia, and which even before these official games played Bosnia in what was Bosnia’s first game before it became a member of FIFA) then he is clueless and doesn’t know the history of his own team!

    At some point, in any case, you would think your coach needs to start learning! Fortunately, though, I see no evidence that he can be bothered, despite the fact that are legions of coaches around Bosnia who have coached in Iran. Heck, even the guy who coached Bosnia before your current coach took over and who was Bosnia’s coach in the 3:2 game you lost to Iran in Sarajevo, namely Miroslav Blazevic, used to be Iran’s coach. In fact, our first 2 official games against Bosnia (not counting the ceremonial match before Bosnia was a FIFA member) took place during his tenure as Iran’s coach! So I am not exactly sure what excuse your coach has for being clueless about Iran?
     
  9. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Until Japan seemed to have turned things around with their draw against Holland and win against Belgium, things looked quite alarming for Asian football as a whole. Japan didn't just lose to Uruguay 4:2; they lost to Belarus, Serbia and even Bulgaria! There was a stretch when things were looking very bad, when the flagship team from the AFC was being beaten up like that, sometimes even at home.

    But Japan appears to have learned what they needed to learn from their losses and shouldn't be seen in the same light anymore. Their results against 2 top rated European teams, in Europe no less, is nothing to scuff at or ignore. Belgium, at home with its best players, was dominated by Japan and Japan won fully deservedly. Even Belgium fans can't argue about that. Holland on the other hand was totally outplayed in the 2nd half and even Holland's players admitted they had no answer to Japan in the 2nd half.

    That game against Holland, incidentally and by some counts, led Japan to a shift in its composition. "Endo time", as one writer put it, emerged from the Holland match, with Japan learning that Endo is most useful for around 30-40 minutes and needs to be used more efficiently and sparingly than to use him for the entire 90 minutes of play. In both those games, Endo came into the game as a substitute and was more effective that way.

    All that said, while I like to see Japan do well, I am never going to put money on Japan. Even when they play well, they can disappoint you. Japan may be fun to watch, but they are the exact opposite of teams like Uruguay or even Mexico. These kind of teams know when to bite and can be quite efficient in that sense.
     
  10. El_Bulla

    El_Bulla Member

    Jan 21, 2007
    I think Belgium is going to prove to be a disappointment for many people. I don't think they've done much to deserve the hype surrounding them, and see them maybe getting second place over Korea.
     
  11. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Belgium are lucky to have a rather manageable group, although that is largely because Belgium are the seeded team in that group! Still, I don't think any team in that group is entirely hopeless or entirely safe. All have a chance.

    I have picked Russia and Beligum to advance and Belgium certainly has some well known players, but I honestly have seen teams with better names than Belgium flop badly. For now, the last 2 results for Belgium have been losses, both at home, and those can't be entirely written off either. Belgium fans say the loss to Colombia wasn't that bad because Belgium was playing better than Colombia and experimenting. They don't have that excuse against Japan. They had their regular lineup and best players and ended up losing by a score that even flattered them.
     
  12. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Grasping at straws? Check who was injured and figure out why it was called a makeshift defense ... also Belgium will not play at home in Brazil and as you can see Belgium does a lot better in the away games (winning all of those in the qualifiers) ... at least those are competitive ... but as you constantly demonstrate, you're looking for the World Champion of friendlies.

    PS couldn't care less about the hype ... we know it will be a short holiday but getting out of our group is a must.
     
  13. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    Forget friendlies: When was the last qualifying game which featured Kompany? A while back. Belgium played its last 3 qualifiers without him. But granted you had some injured defenders (van Buyten was back against Japan) and that is actually something I will keep in mind. However, Belgium were outplayed in midfield at home against Japan. That is what should concern you the most.

    Of course, you can pretend friendlies don't matter, but full squad friendlies are actually played precisely to find out things about your team to fix them in time. (Experimental friendlies, on the other hand, are meant to test new players etc). Of course, if Belgium succeed in fixing their problems, they will do better when it matters. But if they pretend they don't have problems, they probably won't do any better.
     
  14. izzzy

    izzzy Member

    Aug 7, 2013
    Croatia
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    ehm..you sure?
    Belgium is dark horse for anyone...in fact i dont see any team that can beat them easily..

    forget about friendlies... almost noone give 100% in friendly games...
     
  15. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    :rolleyes:

    If Belgium didn't finish on top of the same group as Croatia, maybe your assessment would be influenced by more objective criteria! For now, all we have is Belgium doing well in qualifying on top of its group and then losing 2 friendies at home against 2 teams that have qualified to the World Cup from other regions, namely Colombia and Japan. Belgium's group, I should mention, was interesting in that it had a lot of teams of similar caliber (Belgium, Croatia, Serbia, with even Scotland, Wales and Macedonia not rubbish) but didn't have any true top tier team. Clearly, Belgium have some merit otherwise they wouldn't top their group, but what is interesting is that getting seeded mostly by virtue of winning a group with no real top UEFA team in that group (which then gave them the points to jump in the FIFA rankings), Belgium will also avoid any top teams in its World Cup group as well!
     
  16. Rana catesbeiana

    Mar 11, 2008
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Belgium? Convincing qualifications, many very good players. How long will they go? Tough to say, but my two cents is that the success-decider is the R16: if they make it to the quarters, great. If not, it's a disappointment. But if they're in quarters, they can't be too disappointed about no making the semis as it's not like they're Argentina, Spain, Brazil or Germany. I mean they're one of the dark horses deservedly, but not a favourite to win this.
     
  17. izzzy

    izzzy Member

    Aug 7, 2013
    Croatia
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    lol dude.. that doesnt matter.. in last 20 years Belgium always had good players...
    this generation is something special cause they have very young squad, and they wil have time to be even stronger..

    dont forget that this is same generation that eneded at fourth place on 2008 Olympics , right behind Brasil
     
  18. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    When assessing Belgium, one should note how fast Eden Hazard is coming up. He is amongst the best footballers worldwide this season and no longer just potential. As a few people mentioned in previous posts, a lucky group draw (check), lucky path (possibly) and a key player in form (check) are ingredients of a surprise team going far. Besides Hazard, Mirallas and Mertens are in great form. Fellaini's lack of playing time is a blessing in disguise in my opinion. Dembele, Witsel and Du Bruyne is a better trio with Fellaini and Defour for depth. Defence (incl. GK) they are stacked and they have great depth. Quarter finals is a realistic goal for Belgium and topping their group is a minimum expectation.
    Re: Croatia, I hope to see them going through ahead of Mexico. They have, potentially, one of the best midfields in the world. Rakitic and Modric are amongst the ten best centre mids over the last year and Kovacic has immense talent, despite underperforming currently.
    Two teams I'd definitely like to see go far.
     
  19. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    #119 zahzah, Feb 10, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
    Not much of an argument (especially considering that very few players from that team actually play for the senior national team). Nigeria finished 2nd (thrashing Belgium en route to the final 4:1). Plus Nigeria also has 2 u17 World Cup gold medals and one silver. And they are reigning African champions.

    Yet no one is touting them as being bigger favorites than Belgium, even though they have undoubtedly achieved way more than Belgium in world football.

    Belgium is being hyped solely based on the individuals they possess. Wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be another Cote d'Ivoire. That said Ivory Coast didn't have the added bonus of having a ranking system that benefitted them and letting them avoid a group of death scenario.
     
  20. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Belgium seems to have a classy first team from front to back (save for the mediocre full backs). The drop of form of Benteke and Lukaku should be worrying.

    As for Croatia: Don't count out Cameroon yet. New coach, new players - could be a very interesting and tight group.
     
  21. izzzy

    izzzy Member

    Aug 7, 2013
    Croatia
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    no one disrespects Cameroon at all.. I said that the game vs Mexico will be much easier than game vs. Cameroon..
    cause they are real enigma for us...:)
     
  22. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    @zahzah true, the form of both Lukaku and Benteke is a cause for concern. They'll need one of them to step it up come the WC.
     
  23. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I think both Mexico and Cameroon are.
    Mexico had a dreadful qualifying campaign and will likely base their team on local league players.
    Cameroon isn't going to change signicficantly, but the new coach is doing wonders with them, they have a very strong bulky defensive line-up and are looking to bring in some new attacking talents like Vincent Aboubakar and Paul-Georges Ntep. Plus most of their players are in fine club form.
     
  24. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    We had a decent generation that punched above their weight and reached the SFs at Mexico1986 (expectations started rising since featuring in the finale of Euro1980) ... yet I'd argue the best squad was the one that got knocked out after the R16 tie vs England in 1990 (against the run of play, Platt scored a late goal) ... from 1994 onwards it has been a slow descent until what most likely was the biggest crisis in our history ... then the need for a major change was felt ... what's happening now, is unprecedented in Belgian football ... but it's still 'early days' and we don't expect to make a big impact in Brazil.

    That Beijing2008 generation (consisting of Kompany, Vermaelen, Vertonghen, Dembele, Mirallas, Fellaini, etc.) have matured a lot in the big leagues ... while younger guys like Courtois, Hazard, De Bruyne, Lukaku, Benteke, etc. could be called the Mark 1 generation of our overhauled youth development ... still the next generation(s) might turn out to be better as they started out in the new system as U-6 players while the previous 2 generations didn't get the full benefits.

    @zahzah in terms of 'harvesting' a junior squad ... a huge amount of those players made the senior squad ... normally it's just a few. Also Vertonghen isn't a mediocre LB (although he's better suited as a CB) ... I agree though that our RB is the weakest link ... a former exciting RB prospect that didn't work out is making waves again ... but we'll probably go with Alderweireld. Finally Benteke is slowly regaining form and Lukaku got injured (because of Barry) ... still 1/3 of this season has to be played ... plenty of time to work towards a peak at the end of it ... I'm more worried about Hazard getting injured as he has to play virtually every minute and suffers a massive amount of fouls (same as at Lille).
     
  25. zahzah

    zahzah Member+

    Jun 27, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Both are very good CBs who are decent playing as full-backs, but by no means great. Vertonghen has been distinctly average as a LB in Tottenham, good, not great. Especially average with regards to link-up play.

    Ergo yes: Vertonghen is a mediocre LB.

    Don't know abour Alderweireld. Never seen him play as a RB.
     

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