Friendly on September 2, 2011 (Poland)

word, this is what some dont understand. Just because some peoples opinions at the moment are that hes average, doesn't mean that hes utter shit and hes going to fail in Futbol.

You swear like a player is either great or shit.....at the moment in my opinion hes pretty average because of shit he does or doesn't do. The other parties opinions injected with fandom mean nothing to me.

y dale con las mismas pendejadas

when all else fails, call out the other posters on their "fandom"

When all else fails? STOP .....attempting to radiate maturity, and then using red herring tactics to assert your opinions is pathetic.

You act as if said fandom doesn't exist and its exaggeration, have you read pern/imperfect's Nery posts? Thats basically you at this point.

Im not going to get into this because you know we've done this already, but aside from myself people have criticized ACTUAL aspects of his game hes shown, and you ALWAYS come in flying with your cape and use your assumptions to excuse them. These range from supposedly knowing his exact role designated by the coach, to dismissing people because they saw him in this competition or that competition, or stating what he COULD be one day.

Your a chaton fan....i guess at the end of the day nothing is wrong with that. No one thinks hes a bad player...Some just think hes not as great as you think he is, so go celebrate your balon de bronze and calm down.

I hope Vela gets convocado for the Brazil friendly in October.

In chepo's doghouse

Exactly what is the argument being made?

Enriquez performance at the Copa America was poor. He coughed up the ball at the slightest pressure and his passing was horrific. His defending was mediocre and his offensive ability nonexistent. Overall the range of his performances fluctuated between mediocre and godawful.

Exactly what part of the bolded part do you disagree with?

Cue the Logical Fallacy

He disagreed the part that you formed your opinion about Chaton exclusively on his performance at Copa America. Which is pretty unfair because he played way much better in the U-20 WC. Using Copa America to determine a player's worth is nonsensical because for the most part, most of our guys were set to fail (stupid coach, stupid formations) and therefore our players were shit most of the time.

You said it yourself that you haven't watch U-20 matches. Overall, Chaton played a good WC.

One is a major tournament with first choice squads while the other is a mickeymouse tournament. I stated quite clearly that my opinion is based on the copa america because that is the only tournament that he has played in that was broadcast. Based on that tournament he showed a clear lack of offensive vision, horrible passing, and an inability to hold possession.

Bringing up the U-20 world cup means nothing to me since i cannot comment on it since i did not watch a single game.

The offensive players were completely screwed but we got to see our defenders defend for practically the whole game.

Reyes and Arujo played incredibly well while Michel, Mier, and Reynoso were solid.

The defense was tested for the entire game and Enriquez was the weakest link . This is not to say that he doesn't have a future, what i've been saying is that at the moment he does not deserve a call up.

That's nice but his performance in a mickey mouse tournament does not "redeem" his awful performances at the copa america. He might have played well against people younger or at the same age but against actual first choice players his weaknesses were ruthlessly exploited by the opposition.

I don't know.

The Copa America was one of the worst tournaments in a while. Everyone was bunkering every game. Even Messi looked average in this tournament. To me, I'm not going to value the Copa America as much. It was a joke. Our defensive players were essentially our main offensive option. That's how bad was the formation.

The U-20 WC was really good. Almost every team had real good quality players. Chaton really shined during the knockout stages where the best teams were still in it. All of Chaton's positives outweighed his negatives for me. People keep harping how Chaton keep losing balls but what about the whole team in general?? They lost balls too! People are scapegoating him for something that most of the players on the team do.

The problem that i see is that people keep jumping to conclusions. All i said was that at the moment he will be a huge liability because of the flaws in his game. He is incredibly raw and from what i saw he is a tronco but with the possibility of becoming much better if he learns how to better utilize his size.

At the international level teams are well scouted and the weaknesses of players will be exploited if they do not improve those aspects of their game.

I'm not saying he cannot become a superb DM with time but at the moment his inability to pass and retain the ball is a seriously flaw. What really hurts his chances with the main team is that he does not have the experience to make up for his flaws.

I don't know, you were pretty hard on Torrado and Castro for being bad in carrying the game and how they couldn't generate any offense at all especially because of their terrible distribution and now seem to give Enriquez a pass on this. I don't know, he really needs work on this. Granted he really improved and stood out in the last u20 world cup games and THOSE were the important games because of the stage of the tournament, the quality of the rivals and the importance of him in them but that doesn't take away that he was very poor in the games before the Cameroon game and needs work on his distribution. I think he has a great future but that doesn't make it out of the question for people to have doubts especially on that. Sometimes you act as if it isn't valid.

huh? The fact that you didn't watch it doesn't mean it didn't happen. That a really weird argument especially with discussions to other people that did and to the real world where it occurred.

Another weird argument. First how can you say a world cup is a mickey mouse tournament? It's the biggest stage in the world for athletes of that same age. And then how can you dismiss that because of the age thing but then count and totally discount the fact that we had a sub 22 team for Copa America, which means that we were in a disavantage in the tournament against the teams we faced? It wasn't an even playing field at all and yet you count that because it's said Copa America? Mexico was overrun in that tournament and I don't know why you say that others shined like the defense. If it weren't because of sloppy finishing, we could have been killed in the games especially by Uruguay who just shanked chance after chance.

LOL

Chaton's duties as a DM in Tena and Chavez' formations are almost common sense. If you can't wrap your head around that then I don't know what to tell you.

Here's another nugget for ya.....forwards are supposed to score...

I'm a fan of Chaton and Zavala because they bring height and physicality to the center of the pitch for Mexico but not once have I indicated he's ready for the senior national team.

El chavo fue de menos a mas en el mundial y hay gente que no es capaz de reconocerlo y revientan por reventar.

I've seen him play a number of times and all I can say is that, IN MY OPINION, he has room to grow and his weaknesses can be fixed with regular playing time.

Now, just so you don't come back to me later and accuse me of being a fanboy, the fact that Chaton got better as the tournament (U20 WC) went on is proof that his weaknesses can be attributed to a lack of confidence or too much confidence, which he adjusted throughout the tournament and ended up being one of our top players by the time we played France in the third place game.

I'm sorry I don't see things as merely black or white.

Reyes was equally as poor when paired with Enriquez in the center of the field throughout the tournament, at least I thought so, others may disagree.

I saw Reyes lose the ball quite a bit and miss some passes but I've seen him play in the league, Libertadores and with U20 team quite a few times to know that the sample size is big enough to not pass judgement on him based on the Copa America games.

I never said he was senior NT material at the moment LOL.

You're just backtracking now, I only called you out for saying he was mediocre when you admitted you only watched him in Copa America.

I stand by what I said of Torrado and Castro, especially Castro as he has been an obvious liability against stronger, more physical teams.

If all we can expect from our center mids is to help defend, I'd rather have Zavala there instead of Castro and eventually Chaton, with all his faults, may prove to be a much better option than Castro.

I never advocated for Chaton to be called up to the senior NT and it's well documented that I believe he has to improve quite a bit if he wants to be a regular on the NT, let alone go across the pond. I just refuse to pass judgement on any of these U20 kids yet since we don't know how they'll turn out.

Matter of fact, I think Reyes is more deserving of a chance with the NT than Chaton at this point.

You were pretty open about criticizing Orrantia and De Buen even if they are also u20 so I don't know about that.

I'm not up to crucify Chaton but I just find it strange that you keep on about Torrado and Castro and their distribution skills and how much they hamper the team and then a player and then give a pass on Enriquez or get mad when people criticize him on that as if it wasn't valid at all. It not something totally out of the question because he's really weak in that area and to excuse it on the "he should just destroy" thing to me is a cop out because you seemed to have issue with that before with Torrado and Castro. When people like Panfilo pointed out how Mexico never seemed to be in danger from others attacking because of them, you were clear in pointing that out and now Enriquez does it and you go on and use the argument people were using with Torrado and Castro. Plus like somebody mentioned, it seem that Enriquez never got the memo because he kept trying to play then ball thru and not just pass it to De Buen to distribute like you said before.

I really like Enriquez potential and how he improved after the Cameroon game. He really stepped it up and that is great. I don't think people should be throwing him under the bus but you have to take into account that others already want to appoint him to the NT already. Still to criticize his weak areas to me is valid and to discount them because its Enriquez when you criticized others for doing so, to me is wrong.

Bueno, vamos por partes.

Orrantia was mediocre at best throughout the tournament, especially when you consider the fact that he was supposed to be, in Pajara's formation, the guy who exploited the space on the flanks and an outlet for the forwards. Not only did he not take advantage of said space, he wasn't effective in 1v1 situations and his crossing was extremely poor. I gave him props during the U20 qualifiers because he showed more of what we all expected of him, regardless of the opposition.

Diego de Buen was supposed to be the link between the attack and the defense and he was neither. He had some good spurts, like the game against Colombia but his passing range was nothing but lateral. When you saw Davila coming into his own defensive third to pick up the ball in order to carry it forward, you know your CMs (both Chaton and de Buen but specifically de Buen in this case) are not doing their job.

Both Orrantia and de Buen deserve the criticism they receive because they were inconsistent. Much like Chaton deserves much of the criticism leveled at him for his performance in the group stages.

The thing is, Chaton picked up his game in the knockout stages while the other two did not. In de Buen's case, he was overshadowed by Pinon, who played less than a quarter of the minutes de Buen played.

As far as Torrado and Castro go, it's clear to anyone and everyone that they are the weakest link, moreso Castro than Torrado. They both played great in the Gold Cup final but they were also exposed and you can't sugarcoat it.

Take a look at the Copa America threads, I ripped on Chaton just as hard as anyone for his lazy passing and errors and not once have I claimed he's ready for the senior NT, I don't know how many times I gotta repeat it.

enriquez performance was poor he always lost the ball and his passes were crap. Carlos vela should be in the national team i dont think chepo really cares much for him. And hopefully we see chicharito make a few goals against poland

Subs to the post Colombia 2011 thread I mean Mexico-Polonia thread.

sigh...I stated i cannot comment on the U-20 world cup because i did not watch it. Quite frankly i don't care about the U-20 world cup because it is not a good reflection of the senior national teams strengths. The Copa America is a tournament that featured the first choice squads of various nations while the U-20 cup has a bunch of unproven youth.

U-20 is a mickey mouse tournament because the majority of those "youth" will not automatically go on to represent their senior teams. Same goes for the u-17 world cup, only a small number of those players will continue to develop and reach a level that allows them to contribute to the full national team. Youth tournaments = mickey mouse tournaments; its an issue of "potential" not always being reached as they age.

Put the strawman away...

Aquino was paired with Enriquez for the majority of the time. Reyes played as a sweeper/3rd centerback.

Sad, you need to stop with the idiotic comparison with players. First it was a falty Gio analogy and now its Reyes

I stated he did not deserve a call up because of his flawed game. Your argument is that i'm being too harsh, etc.

Sigh...Enriquez was mediocre at the Copa America and i only stated that it's "possible" that he could improve in the future and become your wet dream.

Reyes played as a DM against Uruguay and parts of the Chile game.

LOL

How is it idiotic when Reyes and Enriquez shared the midfield for 1.5 games in Copa America?

Tiras la piedra y escondes la mano.

You called Enriquez mediocre based on his Copa America performance and I wasn't disputing that. I merely pointed out how illogical it was for you to label him as such when you admitted you've never watched him play for Chivas in the league or Libertadores let alone the U20 WC.

You can keep back tracking all you want, your comments are there for everyone to see.

Y a mi me vale madres, el chavo solito a callado bocas de poco a poco.

I say, take out Torrado and I. Castro, and insert Chaton and Reyes, and we have a better team.

Yet you didn't rip Chaton like the others even before he picked it up. And before he picked it up in the Colombia game, he was as bad or worse than the other two (Orrantia and De Buen). In fact your posture has basically been this

To defend the guy and it's ok but I just don't know why that has to translate for others to not be able to criticize his passing, which is really below average and is a cause for concern. You criticize Torrado and Castro for their weak passing skills and yet Enriquez is worse in this aspect and you sugarcoat that shielding with his youth, which may help but then you can't be sure of that. You can't just rail against two players for their lack of distribution skills for months over and over again and then defend a guy just like that and excuse him in that he just needs to destroy because when that was brought up with the 2 guys before, you had objections with that same argument.

You said it's meaningless to you and if it really is, then your opinion is a total waste because just for not seeing it, doesn't mean it didn't happen and it's not relevant to the discussion. And U20WC is the biggest competition for that age bracket and generations that would be the future senior teams of the world. And like I said , it's total BS to not recognize how the team that went to Copa America was a category below and thus not efiicient for any individual performance since it all was junk. Mexico got overran in every position by every A squad except maybe GK. You can go and say that is the true measurement because if somebody made an argument for any individual player to be in the senior NT, it would surely make a difference to have the best teammates possibles unlike in Copa America, where every position was the 5 or 6th in depth for the senior team. If you can't recognize that the Copa America team had a handicapped, then your analysis is wrong.

No we don't. They are the probable future and it will be a matter of time before it's true in age but not right now. Like I said, Chaton's distribution skills are worse than both Torrado and I Castro.

torrado and castro should leave but i dont think the replacement should be reyes and chaton

Como lo vas a comparar con Orrantia si el de Pumas jugo como un volante abierto con funciones mixtas?

Diego de Buen tenia mas libertad para atacar pero no fue muy constante y en lo defensivo fue muy deficiente por lo que el Chaton tuvo que correr de mas para cubrir a los defensas.

Y te lo reitero, yo si le tire ************ al Chaton por su actuacion en fase de grupos, en especial la calidad de sus pases. De que sirve que destruya el juego ofensivo del rival si luego luego regala el balon con pases chatos.

Por algo dije que por ahora, lo mejor era arropar al Chaton con dos volantes que tuvieran mas tarea ofensiva y dejarlo a el como escudo para destruir el juego ofensivo del rival. Yo me baso en los partidos contra Colombia y Ecuador previo a la Copa America donde el chavo se lucio robando balones y deshaciendose de la pelota rapido apoyandose en Jona y Cabrera.

Zavala is better than any DM in Mexico right now. Chaton y Reyes will get their shot but Zavala is ready.

Sub wey to the Chaton thread, I mean the Mex vs Pol thread ... Ya no
mamen weueyes ... Go to another thread and if there is not one made ... Well make one ...

Ps Chaton was a monster during the U20 WC ...

Ps look back he wasn't a monster every single game he lost the ball so many times it was ridiculous and his passes were always crap and towards the end of the games they got even worse. Im a chivas fan and i support every single Guadalajara player but he need work.

Ergo the nickname?