no worries you can keep your pitchforks for me because imo without Luiz I think we have "zero World Class CDs" and with Luiz I think we have "zero World Class CDs" with a full season at CD with Jose under his belt Luiz could move into that conversation imo
It's difficult to know what JM's seen in training, isn't it. We can't really be sure. For me I think the issue of whether JM fancies sideshow is probably more relevant than whether Luiz wants to move. I'm not sure but I suspect JM thinks the guy's still got mistakes in him so won't be that bothered if he leaves because, out of the 4 of them, (JT, Ivan, Gaz and Luiz), sideshow looks the least like a 'typical' Mourinho centre back... to my mind anyway. Having said that I suspect this is all paper talk, (AKA total bullshit), and he's not going anywhere.
I don't know about that mate Jose was an obvious Carvahlo fan (despite calling him an idiot ) and even nudged Gallas to LB to help make room for him (while also playing Billy in a role of need for us). Ricky and David have a lot in common for me and we saw a marked improvement with Ricky and his "silly fouls" and "brain farts" as he continued under Jose. Luiz has a contract through 2017 so the club really has much more say in this than the media seems to think.
That's my thinking as well. I'd love to be a fly on the wall with JM watching the guy Maybe he thinks he's the bees knees... dunno! Of course, historically JM always worked with a CB pairing AND a guy in front with us so maybe he considers it not as important as he did before but I think that's unlikely, tbh.
I VERY much doubt JM's want the guy gone unless it's for a MASSIVE sum that would enable him to strengthen elsewhere. TBH I doubt he wants him gone at all.
remember as well that under Jose the CDs were had more touches and more possession than the majority of the other players on the field as they cycled the ball across the back line between the DM and FBs patiently looking and prodding for space to open up. I think the need for a good ball playing CD- which all four of our CDs are- is a must in this system but the fact that Luiz can bring another dimension to that system by beating a player or six on the dribble will not hurt either.
agreed on both counts he seems to enjoy his football, his teammates and the League so far I think he also likes the fact that he can leave his foot in on a tackle in England- good luck with that in Spain I would not even consider the move unless Barca were offering 50 mil or above (and pounds not Euros please)
True, true. He's also go a good FK on him. The only area where he's not as much of a threat is on headers on set pieces.
I think Jose is also very good at sitting down with players and not only providing them with confidence but having them assess and improve their mistakes and weaknesses We did not have too many players regress under Jose and even the most of the bad players we had seemed to improve to some degree.
good shout on the FKs he seems to at least get in on the headers and has flicked quite a few chances on I think he is a decent enough threat on set pieces but it is hard when competing against Ivan, Cahill and JT who are all pretty useful with them. I think he is a little overshadowed by them but is still quite useful. Per my original post- I would not want to sell him unless 1. He wants to move 2. We get a significant enough offer Just not sure both of those will occur this time round.
I don't think there's anyone we can realistically get to replace Luiz. There are definitely some World Class CB's out there, but none that we can pry from their team. Luiz really is one of the very few young and talented defenders in the world. Yeah he makes mistakes, but I think the days of lock-down defenders are over. If anything, I think its time to adjust our expectations of a CB and realize that we're in a pretty good spot, considering what's out there. I think we should go after someone like Varane, but not as a DL4 replacement. There aren't any immediate replacements for Luize, but we need to start grooming a new CB team.
Luiz is a starter for Brazil, who just won the Confed Cup conceding only one goal when he was on the pitch and Barca are bidding for him. Our other CB is 32 and often injured while Cahill has trouble starting for England. If people want to make the argument none of our CDs is world class, OK, but which one is closest? It's not Cahill or Terry (anymore). Meanwhile, the real question is, if we sell Luiz, who's going to replace him? Kalas and Omeruo? This year? That's not realistic. Mourinho just spent 3 years using Sergio Ramos at CB rather than RB, while replacing Pepe, a no nonsense supposedly "Mourinho type" CB with Varane, a ball playing teenager. Mourinho is, above all, pragmatic - he'll use whoever has the best chance to win, regardless of whether they're a "Mourinho type player" or not. He played Carvalho at CB all the time, yet the common refrain on the forum was that Carvalho conceded too many silly FKs and also like to dribble a bit too much. And yet Mourinho has taken him to two different clubs after Porto. The media's mistake has been to label anyone a "Mourinho type player", which prompted the silly Mata rumors, despite Mourinho having played Ozil constantly for Real. There's no such thing as a "Mourinho player" - Mourinho will use what he has.
Agreed - Luiz couldn't be replaced in this transfer window. On top of that, if David Luiz (who's part of Brazil's first choice CB pairing) isn't a world class defender, who is? Kompany, Thiago Silva and........?
I definitely agree that Luiz would be tough to replace but if you consider the transfer money we can spend, the wages we can offer, the exposure on the World market, and the chance(s) for trophies we are a pretty attractive option for other CDs as for grooming a replacement I think Kalas and Omerou are pretty good players and it not like either are spotty faced 16 year olds. Will the work in the long run? I don't know but we are not completely void of options. The issue I see is that if we are looking for a "World Class CD" then we are looking at a very, very small group of players. 5 or so years ago there were quite a few players who met that qualification and even more 10 years ago but the number of top quality, World Class CDs has diminished which could come down to a variety of factors.
Exactly. We're most likely never going to get a top-of-his-game JT again. OR the Cole equivalent. The new generation of defenders just don't compare to the previous. Its time to change our standards of a "World Class" defender.
agreed on all counts and quite frankly I do not see anyone suggesting that JT is "World Class" at all in this discussion. I was talking about him in terms of what we have at CD. If you just look around the League you will see that when it comes to actual depth and quality at CD we are not that bad off. as for the "World Class defenders" comment- I could not agree more but especially at CD.
I don't think the talent has changed - the media attention has. Previously there was so much less football being watched it was easier to call players in non-stat positions "world class". Strikers have a goal scoring rate, creative players have assists, but what do defenders have? So if people never watched much of Cannavaro (who I always thought was overrated, for example), it was easy to hear that "Fabio Cannavaro is world class", even if he struggled really badly at Real Madrid. Now, every mistake gets scrutinized because almost every game is televised so that the world-class label is much harder to apply, because someone will point out what mistakes certain players made. Look at Luiz, for example. Everyone keeps talking about his famous slip-ups, mistakes, etc. But last year I can't remember a single one that cost us points. Does Luiz make mistakes? Sure - all CBs do. But what were they? The one I recall discussed most was the Villa goal in our penultimate game, yet I don't even think that was a mistake - an awkward bounce and then a deflection played someone in; that happens. Media narratives are hard to shake, which is why Luiz is viewed as a goofy defender prone to comical slip-ups while Terry is still considered by many to be dominant in the air defensively (even if that hasn't been true since his back started having issues years ago).
Thiago Silva is only 28 now, so he wasn't 30 when PSG bought him. But I totally agree with nice. We'd be insane to sell Luiz. I think he is a world-class centerback, especially when the likes of Pique and Sergio Ramos are regularly getting into World XI's. I think it's right to say that CB talent pool isn't what it was 10 years ago. England once had a stockpile of truly quality defenders, but atm there's no one much better than Gary Cahill (who I really like, but he's never going to classed with the best in the world). Luiz seems obsessed with Chelsea and London, and seems to be best friends with some of his teammates (especially the growing Brazilian contingent). There's no way he wants to leave. As for the media nonsense of Mourinho perhaps not being a Luiz fan, I remember an article with direct quotes from Mourinho about how much he rates Luiz, explicitly saying he is a central defender as opposed to a DM and something along the lines of "he must play." If that's not an endorsement, I don't know what is. Can't find the article on google, but I hope someone else remembers it.
I didn't mean to suggest JT is currently world class or that he's been discussed. A younger top of his game JT is what I have in mind when looking for a new CB and that's the problem. I've been very skeptical and critical of Luiz in the past. He's definitely had his issues and I think he has been unfairly compared to a standard or expectation that frankly, is unattainable. Speaking for myself, once I adjusted my expectations and when you look at what's out there, Luiz is world class. If he wasn't, I don't think Barca would be submitting bids for him. They are in the same boat as us, but a few years behind. They're replacing their old stalwart of a defender in Puyol. Luiz, I'm assuming, was brought in to eventually replace Terry. We're in a transition year at CB where Terry is not good enough to start (for arguments sake) and Luiz isn't good enough to hand over all responsibility and trust. One year (or even a few months) with Jose and I think we'll see a different Luiz.
I think y'all still underrate what we have, a healthy JT which we seem to have is still world class, Ivano if he has a run of games in the middle, not just a one off here and there, is top class and Cahill and Luiz, occasional mistakes aside, very very good and both dangerous on attack and different sides of free kicks, Luiz certainly more natural talent and potential and more dangerous, though a bit more dangerous to us on occasion, Cahill a bit more sensible and better at reading danger in defence, Luiz physically better at recovering though, but perhaps Jose can really improve Luiz in his lacking areas, if Luiz ego allows for it because he has th potential tools to be amongst the best with some more discipline, positioning and game reading. ( Jose probably now has an idea if and how much Luiz is open to coaching) You can find a single cb like Vidic, Kompany etc you can argue is better or the equal of our best, but I don't really see a PL club you can argue is as good or as deep as our set, nor amongst other top clubs across Europe is it easy to find a club for which you can make that argument. Now Luiz, I was misinterpreted last time, partly cause it was joined with the should he be Captain now or soon discussion, but here is what I think: Am I anxious to sell him or would I push him out: no do I think he is very very very good and very helpful to the team: yes Do I think he is indispensable to the team: no Would his sale effect our campaign this year significantly or down the road: absent injuries to 2 no, and, no because we have 3 more and a great pipeline of cb's would his loss be noticed initially : yes but we would still win as much would I go buy if he left: no, I'd keep Omerou around with Kalas as Kalas offers RB cover as well as ESS if Ivano plays more centrally, though Ivano would still be first cover at rb if Dave out would i sell him: perhaps BUT ONLY for very serious money, 40 million quid, not Euro, plus, and then only if Jose thinks his ego is not open to learning and improving (if that is the case I might go 35 million quid only +)
Nobody is arguing anything. We're dancing around making the same god damn points. I don't want to sell him. If he wants to leave we listen. Even then it better be a big fecking bid. The arguing consists of the same points just different people making them....
I'd miss his prsence on the pitch. I always thought in a year or 2, he could be the captain. Would hate to see him go to Barca, especially given our other Brazilians are quite happy and are contributing to the squad almost all the time. I love players who play their hearts out and he's definitely one of them. Perhaps Luiz's motivation is to kick the shit out of Messi in training, so as to make the South American rivals worse off come time to the World Cup in Brazil.
The captain bit is a good point. He'll likely never become a captain at Barca. He would become a captain here. Is that important to him?