PBP: Florida State U. 2012

Discussion in 'Women's College' started by Crazyhorse, Dec 3, 2011.

  1. luvthegame

    luvthegame Member

    Oct 17, 2005
    I am always interested in learning the definition of the term plays favorites. Please enlighten me. What I find is disgruntled players and parents use this term to give a reason why their daughter can not get on the field or by the player to explain why they do not play. If you follow mk and the FSU team you will find that that program is run like a pro team. I think by now most players know the expectation when they go there. They will say that wont happen to me because I am good enough to be a starter. Then when they do not get on the field they now say oh he plays favorites. It's not me I get it done but he has his favorites and I am not one of them. This is the psychology of today's players. Instead of working hard and changing the situation they deflect the issue and make excuses. Maybe mk goes out of country because the mentality of the players is different and fits more of the pro mentality. Just a thought. Every coach has their style of coaching and how they manage their team. Some have success and some do not. This works for him I am guessing.
     
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  2. OMG1

    OMG1 Member

    Feb 9, 2011
    Club:
    AC Milan
    MK has always given more playing time to seniors who for the most part have devoted years of effort but not necessarily results. IMHO Marta should have been on the field far more. She had the highest goals scored in relation to minutes on the field. She has always been good but slighted. Maybe she can not play a full game but neither can many players. With the scoring being a serious problem much of the year the bench was ignored much of the time . Throughout much of the season many starting players questioned lineups as players at all levels always do.
    As far as going out of the country for players there are numerous domestic players who are every bit as good as nearly all the Internationals on the FSU team. The exception would be Dagny who is a superstar and a great find by Mark. I am not critical of success . I would like to see a National Title win. This past year FSU had the right players on the roster but IMHO improperly used.
    Go Noles !
     
  3. devad

    devad Member

    Nov 18, 2012
    When I was young, there were a group of older gentlemen that used to sit on the porch at my granpa's house and critique the Sunday's football game. It was very passionate and heated. They would rant and rave about all sorts of stuff. Their team of choice was the Dallas Cowboys and the coach was Tom Landry. I wasn't into football, so honestly I didn't know much about either. I always assumed my Grandfather was a great HS, college player and/or coach, so I listened intently. One day, I asked my grandpa to tell me about his playing and coaching days. It was a very short conversation. He played 1 year of HS football then quit because he was a bench player.

    I quickly learned there is a reason Tom Landry was the coach of the Dallas Cowboys and my Grandpa was an engineer.
     
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  4. okwolverine

    okwolverine New Member

    Feb 8, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
     
  5. okwolverine

    okwolverine New Member

    Feb 8, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not a parent as you assume but my issue here is that this is NOT a pro team. Yeah it sounds great to run like a pro team but these are amateurs....girls coming to get an education and play a sport they love. They get recruited by these coaches, develop relationships, sometimes move far from home, begin in their education maps, work out financial aid, take out loans if necessary, etc and to then be told we are done with you.....that is just not right. I could see if there were team violation problems or grade issues but to just drop kids for "new talent coming up"-thats my issue. Develop the talent that has been recruited-be a coach, not a pro team owner! Alex Morgan wasn't especially technical or gifted....she was a great athlete that got great opportunity and coaching and look where she is now! There is a lot involved when these kids do get let go-if they want to transfer they have to find a team, find a school that has their degree they have begun working on, financial issues, housing, timing etc. In high school, parents, kids, select coaches a lot of time to weed out and determine what school they finally end up committing and to have to start all over so abrubtly would be very frustrating-IMHO.

    On a side note-in case you don't know any of these girls-they are all extremely dedicated and pour their souls into these teams! Their psychology is not what you mention!
     
  6. DrSoccer356

    DrSoccer356 New Member

    Feb 13, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For a number of years, I have been lurking here following the ebbs and flows of the various FSU threads. At this point, I would like to share a couple perspectives. However, first let me say that a few years ago I had a fairly close contact with Mark and the program as my daughter was on the team both as a substitute and as a starter.

    My first point is that Mark does run his program as if a professional team. He is driven to have his team play the best, most professional version of the game possible. He also expects his players to act in a professional manner both on and off the field. This includes being responsible and dedicated, understanding their role, and being personally committed to the team not the individual. Unfortunately this perspective is difficult for some 18-19 year old young women, especially while at the same time getting used to a new lifestyle and scholastic environment in their Freshman/Sophmore years at FSU. It is also difficult on some parents. One can argue about the appropriateness of his approach, but generally he doesn't strictly manage players or spend lots of time "encouraging" them, he expects them to work hard, keep focused and behave in a professional manner. As long as I have had a view of the program, he has forced players who have either under perfomed or not acted in manner consistent with his view of professional behavior to go elsewhere. He is a very "straight shooter". That is, he lets you know after each season where you stand and if you should consider moving on. I believe one of the reasons that Mark recruits many International players is that they more easily fit in to the "professional" atmosphere he wants to foster. That and they bring a more sophistocated level of skills and understanding of the game to the team that is consistent with his vision of what type of soccer he wants to play.

    My second point is that he generally gives players sufficient opportunities to perform, particularly during the season, but at times may stay with a player too long before making changes. In some cases this loyalty is productive and performance improves. At other times it may ultimately hurt the team overall. His level of patience increases with a player's longevity in the program so that he clearly gives more time to a Senior who has performed well in the past than to a Freshman. I think this is normal but may be viewed as playing favorites. The alternative is to make a change every time a player makes a mistake. I am aware of several "high level" coaches in the College ranks that do this. They are also successful but (IMHO) the effect on their players is devistating and ultimately undercuts confidence for many players and has them "looking over their shoulders" a lot of the time.

    My daughter's experience at FSU was, in final analysis, one of the major influences in her life. Even though she spent a significant amount of time on the bench while there, she did ultimately experience life as a starter as well. However, the most long lasting impact has been the attitude of "professionalism" fostered by Mark's philosophy in managing the team. She respects Mark and he keeps in touch to follow her activities even though she is no longer involved in soccer at any level. What she learned with respect to responcibility and personal conduct carries over into the business community, which is her current "playing field".
     
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  7. StevenLa

    StevenLa Member

    Jan 27, 2010
    Atlanta
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Dr. Soccer, what a well written post. MK does tell recruits straight out of the box that the program is run like a professional team.
     
  8. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This has been a really interesting discussion. There is a completely different coaching approach which is that once you have brought in a player, you are committed to her for four years. That approach also has been very successful, indeed in some respects more successful. On the other hand, it also carries risks, indeed in some respects more risks.

    An opinion: The FSU approach may be more likely to produce teams regularly at the top, year after year. The other approach I've described may be more likely to produce a national championship now and then.

    I don't think there's a right and wrong here. Just different coaching approaches that hopefully are communicated to recruits before they make their decisions.
     
  9. Tom81

    Tom81 Member+

    Jan 25, 2008
    I don't have a problem with Mark's approach as described by Dr. Soccer. As long as he is up front with players about his expectations, then let the chips fall where they may.

    I do believe that he is a very fine coach, but his performance with this team has led me to the conclusion that he will never win an NC.
    When the games get bigger, he substitutes less and pulls the horns in as it were.

    FSU plays too passively IMO and seems to get beat in the midfield in the highest level games we play.
    You can never accuse UNC of playing passively.

    I am concerned about what I'm hearing about Mike Bristol.
    Then again, it is hard to know what is true and what is exaggerated on message boards.

    I'm not suggesting FSU get rid of Mark, just that we fans adjust our expectations to topping out in the final 4, almost always in the semis.
    That is not bad; in fact most programs would kill for that.
     
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  10. Tokonta

    Tokonta Member

    Dec 11, 2008
    Dr. Soccer well written! I agree with most things you said. Just a few comments on others.

    I would agree to this statement that Mark recruits International players because he believes they "FIT" his High Standard of Quality Soccer of "His-Beautiful Game". Internationals are tactically and technically more advanced in "His" Beautiful Game Philosophy than many local players. Not that Locals can't learn it....many do but some do not. In MK philosophy soccer is a Chess game!
    Recruits and existing players need be 'quick learners' or they fall behind. This has become the norm and year in and year out recruits that don't pick-up his philosophy quickly are asked to move on.
    As far as the comment on Professionalism, I don't agree with this comment. There are many girls who did/don't carry themselves with the Professional attitude but when they got on the field it was ALL business. As far as the International players....if they are coming that far from home and have done their homework on FSU and are here to play soccer.....they aren't coming to sit on the bench, they're coming to learn, get better, win and to sign a professional contract!

    The midfield was a problem but so was the formation. It didn't fit the personnel.

    My Christmas gift to FSU is to let offensive players push forward.
    I wish MK would take off the reigns and push forward more. Count how many times FSU comes from behind when losing to win....not very many. FSU alway plays from behind in the Final Four and seems to never catch up. Mark, let your players goooooo, you'll be surprised what they can do!...... FSU National Champs......maybe!:geek:
     
  11. OMG1

    OMG1 Member

    Feb 9, 2011
    Club:
    AC Milan
    If any of you watched FSU this season you would have seen many Internationals. Of the group of Internationals only a few had superior skills to the domestic players. In fact a few were sub-par and likely will not be around after the school year ends. The current crop of players have a real gripe with the Coaching staff. Favor has been given to some of the Internationals because they were given athletic scholarships in full or in part to play , yet their quality of play was sub-par and was joked about by numerous players. I would think the AD would need to examine the unusually high percentage of Internationals and its real value to the school . Recruiting domestic players and then not utilizing them, not developing them is not wise and thus a reputation has begun that FSU ignores its recruits unless they are connected. So far two athletes have left FSU with others likely to follow. What is really troubling is that many women are looking at other schools and crossing FSU off thei list.
    Although the GPA of some athletes apparently been ignored to some degree.. Of the cuurent crop of athletes some have GPA's below 2 and are in jeopardy unless they take basketweaving, etc.
    Each year we lose some recruits but I think this year will be a shock to all.
    I have been an FSU fan for years and will continue to be even if it hurts . I think the staff needs a dose of reality or we will see a major collapse of a great program. The loss of Imazumae and Eric Bell will have its consequences.
     
  12. stupidsoccerdad

    stupidsoccerdad New Member

    Oct 21, 2011
    Come on -
    It takes a team of very good domestic and very good international players (not some “sub-par” players) to win an ACC Championship and get to the Final 4.
    The overall women soccer teams’ grade point average at FSU is 3.3
    Assistant coach, Morinao Imaizumi,had no intention in staying with FSU longer than he did. He was on loan from Japan and his intent was always to return to Japan after this season. His leaving had absolutely nothing to do with any conflict or discontent on the team and came to no surprise to anyone.
    Kudos, to MK and staff for being truthful and up front with these players in an enough time to allow those players to find a new school IF THEY desire next year. FSU gave the two Florida players a chance and it just didn’t workout. Both were given a chance to play this year, and on a positive note, were able to experience this fantastic season and a run at a national title. I am sure we all wish them the best of luck.
    Parents and players have to be honest when they evaluate the player’s possibility of playing time before choosing a top 5 program. Certainly, there are many exceptional stories, where players without a lot of accolades, but high on potential, and find successful careers at FSU and the like. But understand those are somewhat rare and the likelihood is that real top U.S. and international players are coming to teams like FSU and although some will be overrated, most are not, and those players are highly sought after for a reason, usually good reasons.
    Even without a National Championship, FSU is a national and international giant in women college soccer and a great place for upcoming highs school players to consider. Having the international players on the team is a great way for domestic players to learn, develop and be exposed to new styles of play. FSU offers a unique training and playing experience at the highest college level against the very best competition, with the climate and facilities to train all year round. The coaches are committed to the team and the players and have to make many hard decisions.
     
  13. OMG1

    OMG1 Member

    Feb 9, 2011
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Hello Stupidsoccerdad,
    I think you have not fully understood my post. First of all you implied that FSUnwon the ACC this year, they did not. They had a very good record but did not win the Tourney (the Championship) Also the team GPA was not 3.3 . This post was not about the 2 Florida girls. Yes they received opportunities to play and will move on if they so please. They are good players but not FSU quality. My post is more about the remaining players and the deterioration of the teams confidence due to various points one of which is the leaning toward Internationals. Some of the Internationals are very good but some are also below the level of most of the domestics who sit on the bench. It appears as though the scholarship players get all the playing time yet all the players have been recruited. Equal opportunity does not take place as you might think. If you are in touch with any players you would have a better understanding of the mindset that is prevelant from coaches to players. Players as well as bench players have indicated for years that coaches make up their minds before the season even starts as to who is a favorite and who will get playing time. Once the season starts there are very few changes to this pattern. The obvious changes which should take place do not. Marta sitting on the bench was a huge mistake that cost the team points. Playing in her position was a freshman ( Carson) who lacked the defensive skills and still does. The freshman mentioned does not know how to play tough and will not bodyup. Her shooting is okay but is not a complete player yet. I'm not sure why she received so much playing time versus Marta.
    I have observed FSU for years and only in the past few years have begun to express myself because I see a trend that will have a very negative impact on the existing team as well as recruiting.

    Coach K is a very good tactical coach He had a very good backup with Coach Bell and I was very surprised when Bell was not replaced with an equally good coach. Mike Bristol is not an Eric Bell.
    Being negative with the players is not going to lead to the NCAA Championship. Being supportive with recruits and knowing that FSU supports them will lead to better recruiting and thus better students, better graduates and speak well about the program.
    Go Noles !
     
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  14. okwolverine

    okwolverine New Member

    Feb 8, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I agree 100%! I thought the same thing about Marta! She was definately a wasted talent on the bench. Hope she doesn't end up leaving! Obviously there are favorites, you can tell just by who actually got playing time....talented or not! Oh well, time will tell on this one!
     
  15. Soccerhunter

    Soccerhunter Member+

    Sep 12, 2009
    Please pardon me for inserting myself on the FSU thread, but I do see a pattern here (and I know that other experienced soccer fans have watched the same thing regarding other teams over the years.)

    It seems to me that we fans fall prey to the same patterns of thought and behavior when high expectations are not met. A few years ago some of the faithful Stanford fans on BS started going after Paul Ratcliff when their #1 team failed to take the championship game several years in a row. A year ago Randy Waldrum came under some scrutiny from a few fans on Big Soccer with lots of speculation as to whether he was planning leaving Notre Dame. High achieving UCLA has not escaped it's critics on BS. For two years (2010 and especially 2011) some of the UNC fans on this board had very bad things to say about Anson Dorrance' coaching ability, UNC team morale, rumors of mass transfers, inability to recruit, and the overall demise of the program.

    It does seem that having high expectations leads to such fan behavior. We just do not seem to be able to handle frustration well, and we're all prone to it. (We're not called "fanatics" for nothing!) And so far, I observe that in every case (above) these negative things proved to be not true.

    And I would predict that things will prove to be not as dire as some of you may fear. I'm going to bet that FSU will remain one of the premier women's soccer programs for years to come, and go about winning 80-90% or more of your games which 95% of all of the other college teams would "die for."

    I also note and appreciate that this fan behavior to which you and I may be prone does not overwhelm everyone, nor is it a completely fatal disease. One does recover and some resist it mightily! (And I note this trend among you good and faithful FSU fans currently.)

    Hang in there. Enjoy the good parts. Criticize if you must. Know that coaches are human too, (and may know some things that you and I don't.) Praise as you will. Revel in the good quality soccer you can watch. Enjoy the ride. We're all only human... especially us fans!

    Cheers!
     
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  16. okwolverine

    okwolverine New Member

    Feb 8, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well three FSU alum picked for NWSL! Congrats #2 pick Tiffany McCarty, #5 pick Casey Short and #17 Taylor Vancil!!!! Awesome! Ines picked for a team in her native France! Pretty Awesome! Go Noles!
     
  17. Tokonta

    Tokonta Member

    Dec 11, 2008
    +10 to FSU Soccer

    MK must being doing something right:
    Becky, Amanda, Tori, Toni, Tiffany, Casey and Taylor just in the past 4 years and I expect more next year! Go FSU!
     

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