A lot of football injuries aren't that serious, but hurt like hell for a few minutes. Take a kick on the ankle and you aren't going to be running around for a minute or two, even if there's no lasting damage. Players time-wasting is a problem. Players faking injury is a problem. Players being genuinely injured isn't.
players already know that if they have treatment they they have to go off the pitch and it doesn't seem to deter them. They did try the "get the stretcher on immediately" idea during one of the world cups, and it was a farce, and ended up delaying the game more than players staying down did. Providing it's not in a critical part of the field such as the goal mouth etc, I think it would be better to allow the physio on during the game, like they do in some sports such as Aussie Rules football.
By the way, I'd make an intentional attempt to score through use of the hand an offense punishable by a straight red. Why not? If a defender can be sent off for clearing a ball off the line with his hand, why shouldn't an attacker be thusly punished?
Because the attacker is not successful in his attempt to score illegally. The defender, even if the ref blows for his foul, has prevented the goal. See the difference?
Oh, I see the difference. But the intent is the same. And it's extremely dirty. Send him off. And I never made the distinction between successful and unsuccessful attempts. Make your point. But don't be a smart ass with me.
typically the laws of the game don't make that distinction either, although they may play the advantage if, for example, and handball on the line doesn't stop the ball going in. Attempting to foul is just as much as offence as succeeding in doing so. Players don't get let off for incompetence. The difference in the two incidents you two were describing though isn't anything to do with intent. The sending off in the handball on the line is the denial of a goalscoring opportunity, not just "handball". As there is isn't currently any offence of fouling with the intent to create a goalscoring opportunity (that merits a straight red) there isn't an equivalent.
I agree attackers should be punished for intentionally using a hand however you'd need to make it like for lie, i.e. The defender is sent off if he STOPS the goal from being scored, (successful attempt) he is not sent off if he handle but the ball still goes over the line (unsuccessful attempt) So to penalise the attacker the same as the defender you'd need to send the attacker off if the hand ball resulted in a goal, (successfull attempt) and leave him on the field if he didn't score (unsuccessful attempt)
Back on topic, I think the ideas for video reviews after the game would be a more effective idea. As pointed out, there are a lot of ways cheaters could use the "time off the feild" idea to their advantage. It's too bad FIFA, nor any other governing body will do anything about it. It would definitley have to be a panel of "judges" making these decisions. In the MLS would that involve watching 25 hours of games each or only do a review per request of a team?
Video reviews would help however there would be an element of unfairness about them as you could only review games which have been video'd . Another reason why video evidence would not be 100% foolproof is sometimes you do not see incidents clearly because the incident is viewed, therefore videoed, from a poor angle in relation to the incident. Another point is getting the panel to agree. How many times have you seen a panel of "experts" discuss something like a controvesial penalty decision and some will say the referee got it right and others will say teh referee got it wrong? I agree that we need to stop the cheats however players will always push the LOTG to the limit and look for ways to gain an advanatage, i.e. cheat. As for a review panel having to watch 25 hours of soccer. There wouldn't be any need for a review panel to watch all matches, all they'd need to do is review the controversial incident.
I can't say for certain, but in just about every top league almost all the matches are recorded are they not? Even with MLS every match makes it to the airwaves. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I don't recall seeing any league match that wasn't televised in some way or other. This is a non-issue. If the video is inconclusive than that's the end of it. I'm personally just looking to see the 100% bogus dives addressed. In super-slow motion they are usually pretty obvious - if not, get 'em next time. If they don't agree, it's a non-issue. Again, the ones we were originally talking about are generally pretty tough to disagree on. Watch a few Spanish and Italian matches, and ANY match involving C. Ronaldo..people make a meal out of minor contact all the time, but there is another level to this that needs to be addressed. I remember being embarrassed for the sport at times during WC06 on account of Ronaldo. Exactly. Give em' a yellow against accumulation - make it hurt the team not their pocketbooks and it will be come a non-issue for the most-part. If a guy makes $200 thousand pounds a week what can you possibly fine him that will put a stop to it? He'll keep doing it. Turn his team against him, beating him with soap-stuffed socks in the locker room for missing another match on account of yet another post-match yellow card and it'll cap itself quickly ;-)
They were planning to do this in Scotland at the beginning of last year. They had the system sorted out, I think it was suspensions instead of fines, and all the player and managers agreed. It was all about to happen when FIFA suddenly, mysteriously told them not to. They gave no reasons as to why, but they couldn't go through with it. The proposal was soon forgotten about with little fuss. I am of the opinion that the stricter the better. Instead of a yellow, make diving a straight red card. Yes, there would be a few innocent people sent off at first, but only for a few weeks. By then, everybody will have stopped diving. You would never, ever dive with the risk of being sent off, would you?
The way I'd do it would be simple. If you make the ref call for a stretcher, and you request re-entry during the same half, then the ref allows you on and shows the immediate yellow card.
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players don't ever request the stretcher. It's just brought on to either take off players with a serious injury or take off players whose injury will require a few minutes of treatment. Players used to be carried off, or hobble off, prior to the stretcher rule being brought in. The theory being that it'll get them off the pitch faster. It has nothing to do with the injury being supposedly so serious that it requires a stretcher.
Did you all explain why you thought this form of cheating was so much worse than all the rest? For example, why would you give the attacker a red card for diving but not the defender for attempting a trip? Anyway, if you want to review the entire game and then pick out all the checks, pokes, barges, trips, elbows, knees, shoves, pushes, etc, and penalize them, then I guess it would be fair to go after the players who aren't checked, poked, barged, tripped, elbowed, kneed, shoved, pushed and still fall down (allowing for those who just lose their balance).
The vast majority of fouls are not deliberate, but a result of mistiming or are instinctive. Diving, on the other hand, is a deliberate attempt to cheat and is much harder to dectect meaning that it is easier to get away with. Most fouls, and especially deliberate trips, are easy to spot and punished accordingly. You could certainly make a case for tactical fouls being deserving of harsher punishment, or that diving should result in retrospective yellow cards rather than bans, but diving for me is a different case altogether from most other misconduct and is much more of a stain on the game than most fouls.
I think that's completely not true, or at least completely not true at the professional level. At the professional level, the defender who flings his arm knows there's a reasonable certainty that he's going to hit something -- so the 'accidental' tag is a crock. Likewise with a tackle...there are tackles that are controlled and then there are tackles that are wild and out of control. Someone who's played soccer since he was 6 years old and now plays professionally knows the difference. In any event, the defender knows after the fact whether he fouled the player or not, and I don't see a whole bunch of defenders telling the ref that they got the man and not the ball. Hence, they're cheating and they know it. You could make a case (easily) that wild lunging tackles likely to injure someone are the worst foul there is. (a la Eduardo last year)
These type of offences are almost always dealt with at the time and punishments (from free kicks to cards) handed out as appropriate. Diving is almost a no lose situation for the offender. It is rare to be be booked, the worst that happens is you lose possession. Until something is done to actually punish people who cheat in this way then the problem will only worsen. Any rational football fan knows that cheating of any type is a problem and should be removed from the game wherever possible. You can cheat in many different ways, some are far worse than others. Diving is a deliberate (and often premeditated) attempt to con the referee into giving you an advantage. Instinctively pulling someone back when they go past you is a reaction to a situation. Once again though, players are largely punished at the time for their fouls - how many times do you see someone dive and no card issued? Again, these are dealt with almost in their entirity by referees at the time of the offence.
Ummm....so let me get this straight. People who dive are sneaky cheaters who've planned out this strategy far in advance. While the defender who commits a foul is a good-hearted salt-of-the-earth kind of bloke who just gets caught up in the moment? Uh huh. How about considering that both types of players are professionals trying to take every advantage they can to win. Or maybe think that the forward is a kind, loving sort who visits his mom every Sunday and is just trying to do his job without sustaining major knee and ligament damage. And here comes this conniving slabbering hulk of a defender lurching in studs up at every opportunity....
One of the easiest, most effective, most feasible solution has been missed in this thread. Official game clocks with stoppages for injuries. Many ideas are thrown out there that add considerable complexity and subjectivity - video reviews, mandatory time additions, fines, etc. At the end of the day, you cannot ever completely eliminate the uncertainty around whether fouls were actual or simulated. For every undeserved PK called, there is a yellow card issued for simulation on a legitimate foul. However, you can eliminate the time-wasting aspect of it completely, by having an official game clock viewable by all fans and players that stops when players need attention on the field. The whole idea of showing the amount of injury time on the sidelines is bogus. How many times do you see upwards of 3-4 minutes whenever the home side is losing by a small margin. It's as subjective as any other call. By publicizing the game clock you take away one of football's most antiquated and controversial traditions.
No. I'll say this again - the vast majority of fouls are spotted and dealt with at the time. Any player who commits a foul does so in full knowledge that if caught he will be punished accordingly. Any player who dives does so in the knowledge that nine out of ten times if he does not win a free kick, no punishment is given to him so he is free to do the same again the next time around. There is an active deterrent in place for fouling, there is one for diving but it is rarely enforced because it is extremely difficult to spot a "good" dive in real time. Retrospective punishment is the only way that you will be able to identify and deal with most divers. For what it's worth, I believe that for any game caught on camera a full review by the referee and his team should follow and retrospective cards handed out or removed for any offence not identified correctly at the time.
Am I getting this right? An opponent rams his knee up my jacksie in the first minute of the match. My jacksie and the top of my leg go numb so I have to go off for treatment so my choices are, 1) Rejoin the match once I get the felling back into my jacksie and get a yellow card for my trouble 2) Rejoin the match at the start of the second half so my team plays a man down for all but one minute of the first half Alternatively the injury happens in the first minute of the second half Please tell me I've misunderstood you
Not true. Defenders have a fine concept of what fouls they can commit without the referee taking action. There have been many, many, many, MANY occasions where you see the attacker stay on his feet after a foul and there's no call from the ref, and the pbp guys chatter about whether it would have been smarter to fall over to accentuate the foul. So go to after the game review and start giving out yellow cards to the defenders for every non-call. The defenders will find themselves missing games for pokes, and pushes, and tugs and the game will be much fairer. After that, then talk about post-game review for diving.
I really don't see how any panel of judges could find anything to argue about over any of those videos, except maybe the length of the suspensions. That video is a perfect example of classless players staining the world best game. It is truly disgsusting. Repped for the video.