Not sure how Forlan was supposed to have failed big time at Man U. He did well there. Just because a player is not 'the man' doesn't equal failure. And fair or not, the World Cup is not just a tournament. Maradona, Baggio, Romero, Zidane, Ronaldo, Forlan, etc made their names at those tourneys. It's easily when the lights shine the brightest. Not everyone has the time or means to be following all the soccer leagues, year after year. But everyone does tune in for the World Cup. Forlan could have had no club career whatesoever and he would have still etched his name into the greats with that 2010 WC performance. Also, the top clubs pay for surpluses of talent and its actually more impressive if Forlan performed at a 'not top class team.'
Ok first of all I can't believe you just put forlans name next to those greats. I like forlan but that's just way too far. Forlan was a failure at Man U. Was considered a failure by just about everyone there so I'm not sure why your arguing this. Clearly you don't know much about soccer from that time. But if he was world class then he would not have been sold unless he forced his way out. Also those greats you named not only had great world cups but had great club careers for a long time. And honestly champions league is a tougher tournament than the World Cup but there's nothing like repping your country. His performance was great not taking that from him but that does not make him a world class starter or remotely close to the players you just named. And no its more impressive to play with the best and preform at the best. Yes sometimes it can make good players look better than they are but it's harder to be world class year in year out on a team of top players than it is for a player to be the primary focus of the offense and get all the looks/pks. Ex. Dempsey as main focus on Fulham had a great year. Went to spurs where there's higher level of players and had mixed results. His career would be looked at much differently if he replicated the same goal scoring record with the spurs as he had with Fulham the year before even if he still leaves after one year for the mls.
Those greats are often only as good as their service. Put them on Uruguay in 2010 and do they advance to the final four? Maybe, maybe not. But, Forlan is absolutely in the convo with them and as far as the WC goes, none of them had a better WC than Forlan had in 2010. There's nothing 'unbelievable' about that. "Forlan was a failure at Man U. Was considered a failure by just about everyone there so I'm not sure why your arguing this. Clearly you don't know much about soccer from that time." - The classic everyone knows argument. I can only laugh that you even try to play that card; followed by the you don't know card. Champions League is NOT a bigger deal than the World Cup. It just isn't. If a player has a bad champions league, there's always next year. If a player has a bad WC, that's indelible. That player may never get another shot. And I'll repeat that Forlan has had a very good club career and that shows that the 2010 WC was no fluke if you couldn't otherwise figure that out from his consistently brilliant play during that time. Do you fail to realize that in 09, the year before the WC, Forlan led La Liga in goals scored? I guess you don't know much about soccer from that time.
Ok those greats are a whole nother level maradona did it by himself so don't bring up service.they were simple better. The classic this that that you say I bring up. Ok fine tell me then what did he accomplish there that was so successful? Enlighten me. I didn't say champions league was a bigger deal. Clearly the World Cup is. I said its a tougher tournament. The time frame that its in is more spaced out while teams are playing numerous other games and competitions. Squad depth is massively important. I think its tougher not a bigger deal. No, folran had a couple of very good seasons and yes going into the World Cup he was coming off one but he did not play at a world class level for most of his career. At Man U he struggled. Went to Villarreal and played extremely well his first year and then play dipped off. When to athletico and the same thing happen with a great first year, then World Cup, then play dipped off. He is not a world class player. Forlan is not in the same class as MARADONA, BAGGIO, ROMERO, ZIDANE, RONALDO!
You've taken your cues from the media and believe that players like Maradona are somehow on this especially high level. The reality is Forlan has scored way more goals than Maradona in his club career and yet more in his international career; while often not playing at striker like Maradona. Yet Maradona is this untouchable great in your mind while Forlan is a guy who has done nothing so special? All's Maradona is is a formidable talent who cheated at the right time and the media needed to sell someone as a marketing figure. His antics certainly helped to that end.
Wow dude your delusional. I formulate I opinion on what I watch myself. I've watched the tapes of maradona player and I've watched forlan. They are not close. But seeing as this has stemmed way out the realm of USA relevant I'm done with conservation. We can agree to disagree.
It's sad that you call me delusional when Forlan actually has the better stats (against better competition). I mean it's one thing to disagree; but you sort of do it in a drama queen style. And I'll reassert that you've simply bought the marketing shoved down your throat to even believe that Maradona is so untouchable. Reality check: If he doesn't get away with cheating to win a World Cup, he'd just be but a footnote in the annals of football.
There's so much more to soccer than stats but if you wanna use stats maradona has about 100 more goals than forlan. Even without the "hand of god" he was a better player but since you keep bringing that up you seem to forget that without a similar act Uruguay would not of gotten past Ghana. Maradona isn't untouchable to other greats hell I'd probably take Zidane over him but I'm bias as he's one of favorites. Ronaldo over him as well but forlan just isn't in the same grouping. Those players are once in a generation forlan is not. Now like I said this is widely off topic for the USA forum. Conversation is done. We can agree to disagree.
Maradona had 311 goals in 589 appearances. Forlan 235 goals in 577. Hardly a huge disparity; especially when you consider that Forlan has spent considerably less time at striker. And also, Maradona himself admitted that the SA leagues were crap compared to the Euro leagues; so take that into account when you consider that the lion share of Maradona's goals were in SA while Forlan played his entire career in Europe. Maradona tried to make the case for himself being better than Pele based upon his Euro career. What did Maradona do in a decade's worth of Euro league seasons? 250 appearances, 108 goals. Forlan has had 425 league appearances and 187 goals. Forlan's league goals per game actually beats Maradona .440 to .432. And if I had to guess, Maradona likely got considerably more minutes given Forlan's lessened playing time at Man U and Inter. Stats don't always tell the full story. But, in this case they definitely tell that you bought the Maradona hype and the blowback that Forlan is somehow flukey and not worthy of being cast among the greats. Furthermore, Maradona could not kick with his right foot and the closest he ever came to heading a ball in was handing it in at the World Cup. Given that a non-striker like Forlan actually beats Maradona in league goals per game, Maradona's status as a great is highly questionable. The more realistic conversations Maradona should be in are two fold: greatest WC performances and greatest dribblers. But, the dude otherwise is VERY OVER-RATED.
Update on the ratings. Howard - 81 Dempsey - 81 Friedel - 79 Guzan - 79 Donovan - 77 (-1) Jones - 76 (-1) Altidore - 76 (-1) Bradley - 75 (-1) Holden - 74 Cameron - 73 (+1) Johannsson - 73 (+2) Rimando - 73 F. Johnson - 73 Cherundolo - 73 Chandler - 73 (-1) Zusi - 73 Williams - 73 E. Johnson - 72 Besler - 72 Gonzalez - 72 Magee - 72 (+1) Diskerud - 71 Brooks - 71 Kljestan - 71 Undeserved downgrades are Donovan, Chandler and Bradley in my mind. EA are pretty notorious for underrating Americans though. Some of the young yanks abroad who are in the game include. Julian Green - 63 Arriola - 63 Gyau - 62 Ariyibi - 60 Packwood - 59 Lletget - 58 Ben Spencer - 57 Caleb Stanko - 57 Bijev - 56
Donovan's rating is perplexing. Donovan started FIFA 13 as an 82 and had a rating as high as 86 in Ultimate Team. Dempsey started as an 81 in FIFA 13 and stayed that way throughout. Downgrading Donovan 4, especially after his summer/early fall form, made no sense and it shows that the people who do ratings for EA don't have much of a clue.
In PES, Donovan ranks 78 (I think) as second striker, and tops at 83 as RM. That is, he's the second best field player after Dempsey. However, he has other attributes, and the combo of abilities plus the cards he has make him the most lethal US player on the field. He scores like 60% of the goals I score with the USMNT.
I'm not sure I'd agree with that at all. It's much harder to succeed at a World Cup than in Champions' League for individual players and to stand out in the world's stage is much greater accomplishment. Getting a Golden Ball and being named a WC All-Star is something literally a handful of players have ever accomplished, including many legends; Forlan has done both. You really have to make up some kind of funky definition of world class to disinclude a Golden Ball winner.
A greater accomplishment because it's only every 4 so your lucky if you play in 3 where champions league is every year. I'm not denying that forlan had a great tournament and a very good 2-3 year peak but the vast majority of his career he wasn't world class. A very good player but not world class. World class gets thrown around far to much these days.
It's a greater accomplishment and it's also practically harder. You talk about the CL schedule, but the World Cup schedule is probably more grueling for teams that make it through the group rounds. Uruguay went to penalties against Ghana, then turned around and played Holland a half-week later, followed by another half-week to face Germany for the third place match.
Ok champions league is played on top of regular season and other cups teams might be in. Some times they play a league game and two days later a champions league game.
I didn't get PES 2014 or FIFA 2014 yet. Too busy. But from PES 2013, the stats for American players are here: http://pesdb.net/pes2013/index.php?filter_Nationality=United+States&sort=Overall_rating&order=d Some of those players are fake. Of the real ones: Friedel = 84 Howard = 83 Bradley = 82 as CM (he's 81 I think as DM) Jaynerd (Fabian Johnson) = 78 as RB (he's the same as LB and LM, if my memory is working) Dempsey = 78 as SS (he goes up to 80 as LM) Jones = 78 as CM (same as DM) Dotan (Donovan) = 77 as SS (goes up to 82 as RM) Gooch = 77 as CB (but his stamina is so low, after 30 minutes his bar is red) Guzan = 77 Shea = 77 as RM (same as LM, also has a high score as WF --75 or so) Carllanez (Castillo) = 76 at LB (his goes up as LW though, 77, I think) Bonacelna (Bocanegra) = 76 at CB (also low stamina, goes down quick in second half) Chembert (Chandler) = 75 at RB (same as RW) Cameron = 75 as CB (same as CM, goes up as RB to 77 or so) Chilinder (Cherundolo) = 75 at RB
The ratings in this game do not always indicate the better player in the game. All attributes are not equal in soccer.
Good find, but as long as Howard plays for "Merseyside Blue, I just cannot see buying PES. They seriously need to get the naming rights figured out. Also, does PES really rate US players that much higher than FIFA, or are all players' ratings skewed upward?
PES 2014: Friedel 87 Howard 87 Riemas (Rimando) 80 Yelldell 79 Guzan 79 Onyewu 84 Gorliner (Gonzalez) 84 Bentler (Besler) 80 Cameron (CB) 80 Gustaphon (Goodson) 79 Beyagurry (Beasley, LWF) 85 Earley (Evans, CMF) 74 Jaynerd (Fabian Johnson, RB) 79 Palhorse (Parkhurst) 77 Castillo 76 Edu (CMF) 77 Jones 78 Bradley 83 Billdanie (Danny Williams) 79 Kljestan 79 Bedoya (CMF) 79 Zampa (Zusi, RMF) 80 Hollton (Holden, LMF) 80 Shea (RMF) 80 Corona (AMF) 71 Dotan (Donovan, SS) 84 Dempsey (SS) 85 Altidore 80 Godler (Gomez) 79 Ed James (Eddie Johnson) 76 Johannsson (*shipped as Iceland) 78