FA Cup winners to earn CL place?

http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,2046258,00.html

I hope this happens. I think a CL place is just what's needed to rejuvenate the FA Cup, and it makes sense - an actual champion gets a Champions League place.

I think it's a terrible idea. For one thing, there's too much luck in the FA Cup process. I would not want the FA Cup changed, but it's just not appropriate as a CL qualifier, with all of the one match, single site ties. And besides, it's been over a decade since a team outside the big four won it, so what's the big difference?

The other problem is motivation, for a team that has already qualified for CL. I would hope that teams would have enough pride to play all out for a storied prize like the FA Cup, but experience so far (both big clubs and medium clubs resting their stars for league or European play) indicates otherwise. Would Liverpool have pulled off their miracle performance last year if they knew defeat would put West Ham in the CL instead of Arsenal? Not saying they would've taken a dive, but I don't know if they would have found the same inspiration.

I'd like to see access to the CL opened up, but through a more direct route (the possibility of 4th-placed teams awaiting the cup final result to see if they'd "backed in" to CL also does not sit well w/ me). I'd much prefer to see a separate playoff for the final CL place (any kind: 4th/5th, 4th-7th, 4th-6th+FA Cup winner if applicable, whatever).

With managers always moaning about how many extra games a season the players have to play, I can't see this play-off system working.

There is talk that the number of league places available for CL spots for England will be reduced anyway. So, it could be that the FA Cup winners will replace the fourth place team.

I think it is a good idea and agree with the OP that it will rejuvenate the FA Cup and make clubs take it totally seriously. To have teams outside the big four resting players for FA Cup games is terrible - teams like Bolton & Reading for example. No disrespect to either, but with how well they are doing they should be going full tilt for the FA Cup as they would have a really good chance of winning it, not letting it play second fiddle to a chance of finishing 5th or 6th in the league. Perhaps a CL place would make them take it seriously and perhaps then the dominance of the big 4 could be broken.

Managers would gripe about being given a chance to qualify for the CL? You can't be serious. The 4th place team manager would be upset, I'm sure, but if the others complain, they should have their heads examined.

I like the idea of a spot for the FA Cup winner a little better now, but I would still prefer to see a playoff system based on full-season performance. Note that the playoff should NOT include teams finishing in the top 3.

Reading did it last season too. We stated it would be our policy before the third round, when we were still mid-table and still looking to get enough points to guarantee survival. Perhaps with the way that the next few games turned out we could have had a rethink, but Coppell's feeling was that the players who'd earned the draw at Old Trafford (and beaten Burnley and won at Birmingham) deserved to keep their place for the replay. It's also not as if we fielded a team of youth players.

It will definitely add prestige to the competition. I would personally rather see a team that actually won something in the Champions league rather than some team that just finished a modest 4th in the league. As long as the 4th place team gets in ahead of the FA cup runner up if the FA cup winner is also a top 3 team.

I don't think its going to make much difference. When was the last time a team other than Liverpool, Man U, Arsenal, or Chelsea won the FA cup? 1995 - Everton. In fact, we have only had 2 winners outside the big four in the last two decades since Wimbledon's 1998 triumph. We'll probably see a man u vs Chelsea final this year in fact.

Bolton played a full first-team against Arsenal in both games and lost. In fact in the last two years we've gone out both times in extra time in a replay. You can't say we didn't care or played rested teams, even though our squad is so small we really have a case for resting players.

Reading's second string drew at Old Trafford and could have won it, and they nearly came back in the replay. I think your problem is you're assuming that mid-table teams don't win the cup because they aren't bothered, when really it's because the top four are just too good.

There's no need for a playoff. We have 38 games to decide which teams are the best, anything else would just be a cheap gimmick. This isn't rugby we don't need crap like that.

Is lower-division football "rugby" now? It's the system used for promotion, and I think it works fine there. I agree that it would be stupid to decide the league title based on a playoff. But finishing fourth, even over 38 games, is a really rubbish "accomplishment" and the club that does that should be asked to do something more to justify their inclusion in the Champions League.

In terms of crowds, revenue and interest, they're quite equivalent, both need gimmicks to gain interest.

So if finishing fourth is a rubbish accomplishment, how big of an achievement is it to beat a team that finished even lower in a playoff?

In these terms, many of the potential playoff participants (Reading, Portsmouth, Bolton...) are also equivalent, so what's the big deal?

Well, the achievement would be first finishing (sort of) well in the league, and then winning the playoff. The playoff doesn't occur in a vaccuum, which is why I it's superior to the FA Cup as a qualifier.

If you finish fourth you've already proven yourself better than the team that finishes fifth. I don't see the point in promotion playoffs either.

Yeah, this is where I disagree with you. I just think a fourth place finish proves far too little. On average, the space between 4th and 5th is tiny. I'm pretty sure that it's three points or less. In which case, redeciding the ordering on the basis of a single additional game is totally justified.

If the space between 4th and 5th is tiny, then surely the same goes for 5th and 6th, so surely there should be a playoff between 5th and 6th to get to decide who plays 4th in the playoff. But then the difference between 6th and 7th may only be three points or less...

I don't get this angle that the FA Cup needs rejuvenating? That it has some how been de-valued? The winners of the last 10 years have been Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea. That would indicate that none of these clubs have de-valued the competition in any way. It doesn't need revamping.

The number of teams playing second-string players, and the reduced crowds, proves it's devalued. There was a time cup crowds would be higher than league crowds, now it's the opposite. When Man United played Reading, Ronaldo wasn't even on the bench.

The clubs that win the cup don't even really care about it anymore, they consider it a poor consolation to the league title.

I think it plays second fiddle to the league title and Champions League because the financial benefits of winning these tournaments are now far higher than they are for winning the FA Cup.
As far as I'm concerned it has always played second fiddle to the league anyway. Cups generally do. I think the smaller teams always have one eye on a cup run as it generates more games and revenue, but they don't really have a decent chance of winning it because the bigger teams always want to win it generally. The last team to do this was Everton, and even they are as well established EPL club. Man Utd and Chelsea are in this years final and I'd bet my house that both want to win it very much as it caps off a fine season, regardless of how you look at it.



I just don't think a CL place would do that much good. That way you might end up with CCC teams in it (by a long shot) which isn't representative of what the CL is all about. The CL, as hard as it might be for some to stomache, is for the very best teams in Europe, even the world. Not for a smaller club to play in because they had a decent cup run.

That's just my thoughts on it. It would turn the FA Cup into a qualfiying competition and have a negative impact on the CL to boot.


I can't see it happening...

There was a time when the cup final was the biggest game of the year. Nowadays it's just a joke.

I wouldn't go that far? I wouldn't say it was a joke. It's still the biggest one-off game in the country really. Especially this year with the new Wembley and the fact that 1s place is playing 2nd place for it. This year it is arguably one of the most hyped up finals in recent memory.

What is a joke is the way it is run and organised. That only about half the tickets on sale actually go to the supporters of each team. The rest go to FA fatcats and sponsors......

If anything it would devalue the CL. For instance, 3 years or so ago when Man Utd played Millwall. Had the FA Cup been worth a CL place, we'd have had Millwall in the CL...

Maybe Millwall wouldn't have made it to the final if it guaranteed a CL spot, or if they did then props for them!

Isn't a bigger achievement to actually win the Cup (and get the direct spot for CL groups) than being runner ups of the league? Or getting to the final than finishing in the third or fourth place of the league?

For the fans and players, undoubtedly. Winning the FA Cup is as big as it gets. I still think so anyway.

However, for the clubs financially, no it is not. The CL is a gold mine for any club. Worth a fortune. Along with the league. Gieven that prize money in the league and the CL is so high and the relevant money for the FA Cup so low in comparison, you can see why priorities have changed so in recent years.

Yes, England has always been dominated by the same big four since Wimbledon's FA Cup triumph (which was actually 1988).

Such is the domination of the big four clubs since Wimbledon's triumph, I would just like to highlight the years that the the big four have all finished in the top four in the same year.

1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007.

I'd love the FA Cup winners to be handed a Champions League place. But if the winners had already qualified, then the runners-up should not be handed the place. Instead that should go the league position.