England vs. Orange, Friendly: Wednesday 29/02/12, 21:00 [R]

YOU are a product of the Twente youth academy!!!!!!!! Hah!

No but seriously I just meant that Boerrigter was at Ajax around the age of 19 and considering his physical attributes and athleticism you'd think he would be the type of player Ajax would have held on to.

 

That is not the answer. There are no Jaw Dropping Talents anymore. There is a problem with Youth Development. For 6-7 years there has been barely any WC talent.

Youth development is at a VERY low point now. When Sneijder,Robben,RVP,Hunter,Kuyt,Heitinga,Mathijsen,VDV,MVB retire there will be BIG trouble. And another very dull & bad phase till the next batch comes.

All these players are 27-28 to 33-34 & will soon decline at some point.

 

I did not see his post, so sorry for that then. I am not arguing about that at all, of course Holland produces more players with good technical ability

 

The only irreplaceable ones in that list are Sneijder, Robben, RvP and maybe VdV. But they will all be good until at least the 2014 WC and I can see Sneijder and RvP making the 2016 EC. Besides, we do have some talented players coming through: Narsingh, Ola John, Maher, Clasie, Strootman, Gouweleeuw, Krul, Vorm, Douglas (maybe), Fer. None of them are worldclass right now, but who knows how they will develop in 2 years, which is when we will need them to be ready. There are other younger talents in the Ajax youth academy as well.

 

There has been many a time in Dutch football history that there weren't any jaw dropping talents around. The proof of good youth development is not in producing world class talents. The density of football clubs in the NL is such that the next Messi won't escape the eye of the scout. The proof of good youth development is in the fact that even an average Dutch player at an average Dutch club in the second division still has good basic skill, tactical know-how and positional awareness (compared to his counterparts in other European countries). Youth development is an education. There are no Dutch universities in the global top twenty. Where do you think you have a better chance of getting a good education however, in the US or UK, or in the Netherlands?

The sheer fact that the NL can perform so consistently on the international level underscores my point. We hardly ever are the team with the most superstars. According to the international media Spain are masses better than us. And Brazil have much more quality. So how come they have a difficult time beating us? I'll tell you why. Because our weakest link is generally better than theirs.

I can't help but think that this obsession with producing superstars is an Ajax obsession, sorry.

 

No worries.

 

Good interventions, Dutch commentator on Veronica caused here the miscommunication and sense of injustice. Problem solved.

I don't think draw would portrait the difference correctly. What happened after the rest was that Holland scored within 1 or 2 minutes 2 goals and was building momentum. KJH first had that shot on goal, then the good off ball run setting up Robben and then scored. KJH wanted to score a brace and was eager as what to make the statement he and not RVP should be Holland nr 1 striker. He was even mad to be taken off. That momentum was broken with the collision, that sucked away what was in the air: more goals from KJH. Also goal nr 1 of England was off side. So should not be counted. If you bring in inexperience as an argument, England then only after we brought in Emanuelson and Vlaar, England scored goals.

I will have to give you especially the Cole argument. With Cole on the left back, he would have made life more difficult on Robben here and there, though Robben was deployed on the left wing for us and then taking the freedom to go right, left in middle (not fixated position for Robben (England don't manmark I thought, but mark the zone).

More chances, I contest:



Now this is subjective as it's about the quality of the chances and Sturridge had a huge one. But Netherlands could have done some more damage also (not necessarily translating in a shot on goal, like when RVP should simply have flicked it to the side so Robben had a clear chance on goal). I didn't feel really threatened and the first half was just a borefest.

After the 2-2 Netherlands/Robben became a bit mad and went for another goal and got it within moments. That tells me something about being able to up their game if they really had to. Also remember this was a home game for England, giving them some advantage.

Where I felt in the previous friendly Netherlands was totally shut down by England and was powerless (though getting 2 lucky goals handed), I felt Netherlands did not go for the max in this one and nevertheless got a win. England side is inexperienced, but also had a new coach and often with the first game under an new coach the team performs fresh and more energetic. Is also a mechanism in football.

With Wilshire, England is maybe better, but how are his chances to even make Euro 2012? If he can't then that argument would work for after Euro 2012 and I see this friendly as a preparation for Euro 2012.

All in all, from my perspective, the moment of the game was the momentum brake with the collision, changing what was coming. But that is subjective and has to do with how people's feelings are during the game.

 

Notice Puck I have selected some of your quotes and have put them the way I wanted to react on them so I can better comment on them. I was too worried about Dutch talents and IMO it´s the outliers like Sneijder and Robben that can bring you silverware. But I also rember watching a game on Canvas or another Belgium television station when Ajax had to play CL against a Belgium club with Wes and Raph on midfield and was knocked out. The commentator was like, well people, this is the future of Dutch football (ridiculing remark). Also under Koeman I remember that incident with Sonck and Wesley and how it didn't look to function well, yet later that player almost won the Ballon d'Or. I remember when the previous generation had to say goodbuy and we were starting making lists with Konterman and Sikora . I recently spoke a scout from the KNVB that has worked 30 years for them in that function. I said to him I was worried and he said talents stand up at a certain moment. He even said that the brother of Overmars had more talent than Overmars, but that his less talented brother made it instead of him. My point is, that we don't see them does not have to mean there is not something brewing.

The last of your 3 quotes only makes a case that talent development is apparently pretty good in other regional spots. A van Basten could develop at less prestigious clubs than Ajax alone. What to think about RVN? Was not a meteor. You will always have those too.

Also consider this. Even if we become a Belgium for a period of time, well it's not all about the ups in life. You experience those with greater pleasure when you have shead some tears from frustration and anger

This is the Dutch forum, if you like hype go to the USA forum and read some old Freddy Adu debates. VDW is a very mediocre defender and a nice footballer. That's it. I am happy with him for the NT, because and that's the point I am making time and again, if your strong point is football, you will do better in the Dutch NT. I find him better for Holland than for Ajax. That's why I know Clasie will do well and all pundits are wrong.

I think your ideas are static and not calculating for modernisation and culture mixing that is taking place at a much higher pace than even 10 years ago. Everybody can download 600 tricks and start practising them in their back yard or on the street with friends. England is not determined to conduct themselves to behave they always did. Cleverly is like Clasie. Wilshire looks good. Ox looks good. I think to hold on this idea or take a position that it is the way it is and will always be (will always be a clash of culture) will set you up to be surprised. You are betting against the human spirit and ability to learn and reinvent itself. I have read a book where a Dutch journalist talks about the how Dutch footballers looked like farmers compared to the English players and their style of play. This is many, many decades ago, but makes clear how a nation can adopt new ways. Pucks point can be real, that England is up to a great new generation technical gifted, but at the same time, I say let's see how it develops. Many nations proclaim that the future is theirs pointing at their youth.

 

Meanwhile I wonder if anyone even watched the game last night. Heaven's above our players are so superior to England both technically and tactically it's untrue. Never mind England fielding a b-team, the tactical dimwittage of England play maker Parker alone makes me thank the heavens for the Dutch football education. England makes up for all of this by opportunist play and pace, and fair dues to them. But seriously, anyone who claims that English youngsters are better tactically and technically than the Dutch needs to have their football brain examined.

 

@DRB300

Of course you are dependent on luck and the willpower of the talents. The Overmars example is a nice one and I also know that Bergkamp had talented brothers.
But my point was that the drought in the late 70s and early 80s did change the education system. It was not just "we will take a look from a distance and wait for a new Rensenbrink", no, the academies worked for it. As said, the crowding out of street-football provided some challenges. Hence, the Ajax youth-system already improved for a great deal even before Cruyff came. Because the people at the KNVB weren't sleeping and taking a nap.

 

How are you so sure?

That shape depends a lot on the economic circumstances. Those were exceptional in the 1990s, hence, amateur-football flourished. Current economic outlook is grim, with negative growth while, for example, Germany has positive economic growth and fares much better.

 

Sneijder was only 7 while VDV was 9 when they joined Ajax. The Mini's/U7 sides are the youngest possible age group in Dutch footie, that means Sneijder had less than a year at DOS before he was discovered during the Ajax talent days.

I have to disagree and say that his 16 years in Amsterdam shaped him more than that 1 year at DOS.

 

I was thinking, we could already field a decent team with Eredivisie talents. I don't think the future looks that grim:

--------De Jong
-John------------Narsingh
---------Maher
---Strootman----Clasie/Fer
-Van Aanholt-----Van der Wiel
----Gouweleeuw-Douglas

 

^ I agree

Dost/Luuk

Derk/Ola - Maher/Siem - Narsingh/Wijnaldum

Strootman/Fer - Clasie/Anita

van Aanholt/Bizot - Douglas/Nuytinck - Gouweleeuw/van Dijk - VDW/van Rhijn

Cilessen/Zoet/Bizot​

 

The KNVB has never had more active members, for starters. Over a million. Only Germany has a higher percentage of its population playing organised football. I don't know if you ever go to an amateur club. Even the most modest of clubs in this country have excellent facilities and qualified coaching staff even for the little kids. We're miles ahead of England in that respect.

Let's put it this way. If there's a little Cruyff walking around somewhere, there's a VERY high chance that he gets spotted, and that the most is made of his natural abilities.

 

RVP is not irreplaceable. As a matter of fact that is the STRONGEST department. Dost,Luk De Jong,Ricky -> Well neither of them maybe have the technical skills of RVP but any of those 3 in 3-4 years can grow into a World Class Striker,as in a Goal-scorer,yes not the technical skills of a RVP.

And RVP is already replaceable. Hunter ideally should start.

 

I am not an English baser. Adam Johnson is the most gifted Winger in England,leagues better than a Walcott or a Downing. Its just that he is in City & the coach has no idea how to use wingers.

Ashley Cole I dont rate. I think he was one of the best around. But Cole was ***** time & again from Valencia to even furthur mediocre talents. He has detoriated. I actually prefer Baines. He is good in attacking & has great crosses/set-pieces & England should stick with him.

Wilshire has a huge injury but there is a HUGE DOUBT if he could make into that side with Gerrard & Lampard in there. He is a TYPHICAL massively Over-hyped English talent who would have done average against England. I rate him highly but he is 20 year odd rookie. That is the truth. I dont see him as a game changer.

And Welbeck & Sturridge are actually skill wise & technically much better than Rooney. Great passers & Sturridge is quick & can play wide. Wellbeck's movement is very good. Rooney is still a great player but he needs SERVICE.

BTW I think Holland were 2-0 up & the first English goal was offside. We brought on Vlaar & Urby who would never start in a big match ever. I think the 2-2 was thoroughly undeserved. Sorry. And we had bad luck If Huntelaar had stayed after 2-0 & with Robben's space & Hunter's goal-scoring abilities & if Vlaar had not been subbed in, I argue we could have won 3-0 or 4-0.

 

Not even close.

 

Wilshere was the best player on the pitch against Barcelona.. this kid is not overrated. I agree with Johnson and it's the manager's fault for not playing him more.. also Oxlade-Chamberlain should have been called up.

3-0 or 4-0 no way... I think 2-2 was the fair result. Our first goal might have been slightly offside, but those are the types of calls that can go against or for you.. Downing missed a sitter, and so did Sturridge, so I can say that it could easily have been 4-3, or that with Ferdinand, Cole and Terry it could have been 2-0 to us.

 

Wilshere is class..Definately not overrated..Welbeck and Sturridge skill-wis and technically better than Rooney? What a load of toss. While definately quality young players, there not even on the same plateau.. Your last paragraph is also laughable.

 

Wilshire is massively Over-rated.He is an above average talent. End of story. He had a couple of decent touches but he will be Ramsey No.2.

Anyways England's 1st goal was Offside,it does not matter who gets what chances. Bottomline is DOWNING did not have the class to convert. I think a 3-0 or 4-0 was a fair result. As a matter of fact I think England will not even make it out of their groups in Euros.

 

Rooney is technically & skill wise a Pretty mediocre talent. The only reason he is so overhyped is he plays in EPL otherwise he is a BIG zero in the NT stage in all major Events. And he is not even Top 10 ST in the world.

Wellbeck's off the ball movement is class.


About Wilishire. He is good talent but he can be anywhere in between a Gerrard & a Charlie Adam. The problem with British youngsters is you give 2 good performances & they are hyped to the moon. The same was the case with Ramsey & now I think this season has demonstrated that he is a barely above average to Good talent.

The same will be the case with Wilshire.

 

I stopped reading after the first sentence.. Your knowledge and credibility is non-existant as far as football is concerned..

 

Cool. The fact that you are an English Soccer fan says a lot about your football knowledge anyway. I have no intention to carry on this furthur.

 

Wilshere and Rooney are top class talents. English or not