Who cares how many hispanic players make the team? All that matters is how many good players make the team, regardless of nationality. Besides, Chivas USA is probably going to go after all good available hispanic players aggresively, probably overlooking several more talented players for SLC to take.
Correction, Joe. The 1999 U17s included Countess who was the goalie in all of the games. They came in 4th in the World and they lost to Australia on PKs. One of our guys didn't convert. They received the award of U S Soccer as "Team of the Decade." Ellinger got great results.
Well, if you're the GM, and you want to market the team to hispanics, it might be a good idea to have a hispanic player or two on the team--good ones to boot. Also, Hispanics won't support the team if it turns out to be a Dallas-type clone on the field. If you want to see guys run themselves into the ground chasing the ball, then I guess this team will be for you; on the other hand, if you want to see a team play with some degree of sophistication, don't look for an Ellinger coached team to provide it. Sure, Ellinger had success with the U-17's, but talk to most people in the know and they'll tell you that he should have done better, especially in the most recently completed tournament.
A U17 using the longball? Never heard of such rubbish... Of course the teams he has coached haven't been the most skilled. Even Arena would have to use the longball...we are talking about 17 and younger players. Every player from Landon to Beasley speak praises of Ellinger. Give the guy a try. I has been successful at the teenie-teams, maybe he will surprise us. In any case, he is the SLC coach, so get used to it.
Look, time will tell as to how good of a coach Ellinger is at a pro level. Clearly the man is a good teacher. His players like playing for him and speak highly of the experience. I think he's very successful for the USA at a critical level. Most good 15-16 year olds are in youth academies overseas and the Ryan Giggs and David Beckhams have been identified by pro clubs and are in their folds. And the Cruyffs and Maradonas and Van Basten's are already pros and either playing professionally or on the reserve (not youth) sides. Nothing the USA does is even close to this exposure. So our residency camp in Bradenton (which Ellinger premiered with the 1999 side) is the closest we can get to providing serious competition and continuous instruction for our better players. So I cut him slack with our defenders playing long balls from the back. The same year our 2001 U-17 crashed in Trinidad, our U20 side bombed in Argentina. Different coach, more professional experience (with Convey, Beasley, Donovan, Countess on the side). But our defenders were still playing long balls out of the back and looking like deer staring at headlights when under pressure. I think this issue isn't an "Ellinger" issue, I think it's what happens when your best defender talent isn't used to high-pressure, fast paced games that demand skill on the ball. There is only so much you can simulate in practice when guys aren't used to those demands at age 14 or 15. As for the Hispanic/English ball deal, that's a red herring. Ellinger has included hispanic players in his U-17 sides. It's not that he seeks to play bad English direct soccer, the criticism is that his sides are tactically unsophisticated and that his defenders tend to boot it out of the back. And I think that's a function of the talent he has to play with. Bottom line: play good soccer and you'll attract fans. Given that Ellinger doesn't have a pro track record, you can otherwise make a reasonable assumption that his teams will be successful and his players will get better.
It's a two-edged sword, JoeW. Ellinger has the luxury of having the longest residency of any national team. As a matter of fact, with Donovan's group, he trained them together for 2 years. No other country I know of has their team together that long. Also, USSF throws more money at the youth teams then almost all others. With that kind of advantage, his teams should LOOK like they know how to play together. Look at the recent play of Rongen's U-20 team. They looked a lot more sophisicated then any squad that Ellinger has coached. Last I looked, Wolfgang Sunholtz wasn't being considered to coach any MLS team (coach of the U-20 side in Argentina). I totally agree on the hispanic red herring. How many hispanic players (that are elligible to play for the US and Donovan's age or younger) are playing well in the professional ranks?
That "put a hispanic on the team and they will come" has been pretty much disproven by the other MLS teams. Even when the Galaxy had Hernandez they didn't have a huge attendance boost. Oscar Pareja still plays for the Burn, but their hispanic fan base has deserted them (at least according what I've read here). The Rapid's attendance hasn't increased due to De la torre, Peguaro and there's another one but I forgot his name. If that's that's the nly reason to pick up a hispanic player, they shouldn't do it IMO. I think it would be a mistake to assume that an Ellinger coached MLS team will play with the same style as his U-17 team. Youth soccer in general differs greatly from pro soccer, and Ellinger may have played the way he did (be it good or bad, that's a different debate) because it was still 16 and 17 year olds who haven't fully physically matured and who haven't had a lot of competition until that point. I'm not saying he definitey won't play the same way, but I think it shouldn't be assumed that he will just because of the way the U-17's played.
Orlando, there's nothing wrong with the long ball so long as you mix it up with other aspects of the game. The problem is that Ellinger doesn't. Want Proof? look at any of the games from the last U-17 tournament. Most were long balls to Freddy. Very little, if any build ups from the back. No defensive men making runs into and through the mid-field. Very little mid-field play. That's the way he coaches.
When you consider that the attacking midfielder for the US in Finland was soon-to-be-ChivaUSAer-then-soon-to-be-San-Diego-Gaucho Guillermo Gonzalez; how much service was Freddy going to get?
The Blitzz have had Jorge Estrada, Guti, Ariel Bravo, Fito Ovalle and Damian Munoz; and others I should remember. It's hard to tell if they have much of an effect. A lot of Jorge's friends & family come to see him & he's also a favorite with us Gringos. A lot of the kids that Fito coaches come to games. Weather, kick off time, stadium location & ticket prices will factor in more than ethnicity. The World Is Welcome Here. Overpaid & underworked Allocations from countres that the US regularly beats 2-0 that we have to trade half our team for are not.
Jeff, you make good points, and most would be even more valid if the reason for the lack of sophistication were due to the lack of Hispanic American players in the talent pool. That simply isn't true as we all know. The fact is Ellinger, much like many of his English football-influenced bretheren, prefer a physical type of game to a short passing, slow build-up type one. You are probably right that coaching teenagers is alot different than coaching pro's, but that isn't my point. Also, I didn't say that a team needed hispanics to draw, what I did say was that if you want to play attractive soccer, you'll want some hispanics. Coaches in any sport will always stick to the style of play they are most comfortable with. So based on that, I doubt Ellinger will draft anything other than those players that are big, strong and fast. Of the teams in MLS, only four--maybe five--are worth watching: San Jose, LA, NY/NY and untill recently, Chicago. I would include DC United but they need to score a bit more consistently to compliment there very good mid-field. Now are these teams in first place? No. But I would rather pay money watching any of these teams than either Dallas, Columbus or Kansas City. I guess we'll have to wait and see who he drafts and ultimately keeps.
Davide, let's say you're right. If so, then Ellinger has done a poor job of scouting players. It's just inconceivable for me to beleive that this group was the best he could find, particularly in the mid-field. What, out of the millions of teenagers who play soccer, he couldn't find better players, let alone two or three gifted hispanic Americans? Sure Elloinger does a good job developing defenders; that's because they're much easier to develop than attacking mid-fielders and/or forwards. That being the case, he's guilty of laziness for not scouting out west. SLC can do much better than this clown. I wonder who Checketts and co, are listening to for advice. Probably some USSF toady.
I don't disagree that he's made some mistakes on players, although I doubt it would've made much difference on the scoreboard. There was a player named David Gomez that played in the McDonald's All-American game that impressed me greatly with his killer passing (of course, I don't know if he's U.S. eligible for certain) and IMHO he looked like a player that could've helped in Finland. However, it's still a reality that our club system doesn't produce any Diego's, Ederson's, or Mourad Meghni's at the present time. Heck, even Sierra Leone had a nice attacking midfielder. Do you think a new coach will suddenly develop world class players in the central midfield? I'm optimistic that there is a coach (not sure who) that can improve our possession game, but I don't see us churning out the quality players at these positions like France, Brazil, and a few others until there is an improvement in the talent pool. I don't think it's matter of making better selections. It's a lack of talent issue. BTW, Ellinger's former forwards have been fairly successful (Donovan, Ed Johnson, Gaven F/M) at the next level. The wide midfielders are pretty good as well (Beasley, Mapp, Convey). The central midfield and outside backs are the positions that have not produced much of anything yet.
If Ellinger had the opportunity to see every one of those millions of teenagers play for a long enough amount of time and against good enough competition to make a fair analysis, he probably would have made different selections. What's really sad is that most of his job is actually done by 40 year old men who learned the offides rule within the last ten years. They are the ones who decide who's good (I'm talking about club and HS soccer coaches) and Ellinger has to pick from them. For the most part, those guys pick players who look really athletic because they are physically mature for their age, or are in reality just extremely athletic. And that's who Ellinger gets to look at and not always the skilled guys who still get pushed around. It's a problem with our system, and one that only time can heal as more and more pro's or players w/ high experience start coaching.
Bruce Arena is the best coach the US ever had at the helm of the National team so his opinion is really important and respected.He basically runs soccer in the US. Ellinger and Rongen are part of his small entourage so it's not surprising to see them get the MLS coaching job. So far we have Bradley,Sarachan, Rongen, Ellinger plus Nowak was Bradley's protege. Where did most of them come from? Bruce Arena's coaching staff.
Ed Fajardo, I think you're making some assumptions about Ellinger that are groundless. Look--maybe he'll be a good pro coach and maybe he won't. We don't honestly know give that we don't know who he'll choose as players and what style he'll play. That said... --I don't get where you get off saying he is influenced to play English direct soccer. B/c he was a youth coach and teacher in Ellicott City, Maryland? --How he played with his 3 U-17 teams is a clue but not definite proof. And for anyone who saw his sides play, you'd say that they were 3 very different sides with different styles of play. --Looking at how his U-17 talent evolved is misleading. For the "99 side, the original A-mid with the team was Demarcus Beasley. Yes--DMB. Until Donovan joined the team. Convey was mostly a forward, sometimes an A-mid for that side. The team with EJ and Quaranta wasn't a long-ball/direct soccer team. In fact, I remember that side as a group that distinctly preferred the ball on the ground and liked to attack teams with the ball at their feet. --I'm not sure the point you're trying to make about hispanic players. Memo Gonzalez was the A-mid for the 2003 side until he was hurt. He's had hispanics on his roster and played them regularly. To argue that he's done a poor job scouting is inaccurate. As others have pointed out, Ellinger doesn't have the authority to scout the players. Even if he did, he's going to scout the country? He has/had some say in who was part of the residency but he didn't control it. Furthermore, there are players who got invited who turned down the residency offer (such as Fro Adu, who his mom felt he wasn't ready yet to live away from home). I think it's difficult to project how Ellinger will do by looking at his U-17 teams b/c it's difficult to project that talent. Our best U15/U-16 players don't get tested like those in Argentina and England and Germany and Nigeria and Brazil do. So while the residency camp helps, it's still a compromise--a compromise so guys like Alexander Yi can get enough education to still pursue college (as opposed to their counterparts who have focused on being fulltime soccer players in a highly competitive environment).
Sokol, I agree with your point that Ellinger doesn't get to see the vast majority of his players. But he does get to pick those coaches that do, and he does tell them the type of player he wants them to look for. When a national team coach takes over, he tell the federation's coaches the type of player he's looking for, and it's their job to go out and find them. True, those same coaches can't go out and scout every high school player, but everyone of those coaches has a network of high school and league coaches who are in the know. It all comes down to what type of players a national team coach wants and which ones of those coaches he'll listen to. If what you say is true, then I guess we'll find come draft time and when we see what the composition of the opening night squad looks like. He'd better get some skilled players (hispanic or otherwise) anyway because the long ball ain't gonna' cut it in the west, which has plenty of skilled teams; SLC will get buried (unless the league goes to single table). That doesn't mean I wish the man ill-will. if he winds up with a team that shows some sophistication and can do something with the ball in mid-field, I'll be the first to jump aboard his band wagon. But based on what I've seen the past several years, that ain't a gonna happen. But don't fret, perhaps Yallop will be available in a couple of years; or maybe even Gus Hiddinck or some other dutch coach.
You have been misled if you thnk the U-17 national coach has any influence over who makes club teams and over who coaches club teams. Club team coaches don't scout for the national team, they scout for their own team. As has been pointed out, Ellinger doesn't even reign supreme in picking his own team. It's definitely a problem with our system, and makes it pretty ough to make any substantial conclusions about what kind of coach/scout Ellinger is.
I didn't say that the national team coach has a say who gets to coach a club team. What I said was that USSF coaches know many of the college and youth team coaches and that they often (or should) hit them up for info regarding any really good players that may be in their area and who might not have been able to make any of the ODP sponsored tournaments. The problem is that many coaches don't operate this way, choosing instead to have the best players (read: those who can afford to) come to them by participating in some regional tournaments. The problem is, of course, that many excellent players (particulary ethnic ones), can't afford to go. Then when someone asks the under -17 or under -20 team coach why their team didn't play up to their capability, or why their team was absent any skilled mid-field players, they get to say: "these are the best players we could find. There aren't anymore," which is what Clive Charles told a reporter when asked at the olympic games in Sydney. Coaches can find out about players in any region of the U.S. by simply picking up the phone. Clive Charles or Ellinger could have found more good players (hispanic or otherwise) by picking up the phone and calling people like Steve Sampson, who is aware of the best players in Southern California, or Roy Rhees, a former u-20 coach now director of Texas soccer organization, who can quickly find out who the top players are in texas. And I'm willing to bet that most of those players somehow fell through the USSF net. Perhaps SLC will hold tryouts, much like Chivas did, in different parts of the country or mid-west, in order to find a player or two that somehow might have slipped through the cracks. But I doubt it.
I won't argue that lots of good players slip through the cracks, we all know that is the case. What makes you think the USSF doesn't talk regularly to guys in the know (who aren't really as much in in the know as you think, especially in big states like California and Texas)? I think the flaw in your argument is that you assume that there are people in power who do know all the good players, when if there were we wouldn't see a lot people fall through the cracks. There aren't any guys out there with real connections to the people in power and who know about good players, who are just keeping their mouths shut. If the head of a state's federation knows of a kid who's good, he opens his mouth. The problem is that even in small states the heads of the state associations don't know who they've really got. The problem is already too big at the state level before it even gets to Ellingers hands. I think tryouts is a good thing and SLC should hold them, especially if there are going to be reserve teams. The blitzz used to have tryouts, and I believe that's how they got Jorge Estrada, who's a player I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see at Chivas sometime.
Back to "Ellinger is SLC's new coach?"... top drawer is saying that negociations continue. Rongen got out of his contract with a tournament coming up in Jan. SLC is negociating with Ellinger's agent. It sounds like Elllinger is on board but the details are being ironed out.
