El Grande: The Darren Fletcher debate

Dark Savante · Jan 19, 2006

Hello all,

I would like to put a disclaimer on this thread before it gets going. I am almost bereft of an opinion about Darren Fletcher. Both the for and against camps for the player are too extreme for my timid eyes to read a Fletch inspired war. What I always do with young players is give them the benefit of the doubt. As far as that goes Fletcher is a kid and as such I find it hard to slate him. In fact, when Fletch has a bad game I don't write much about it for fear of both the Fletchfor and Fletchagainst camps begin yet another war of atrition that dies down...until the next questionable game.

This has been going on for almost 2yrs now. One side panning him and really making a bigger deal of an OK performance then is merited and the other side really overstating his attributes or contribution when he has an above average game.

SAF has reassured us all that Fletch is going to be a class player in a few years time. Sometimes I think he may be right, but others you'd think the manager has lost his mind. I've watched Fletch grow, admittedly don't watch him for Scotland (excpet in the Italy game where he was impressive) but at reserve level I never thought much of Fletch, I never got a 'high' vibe from watching him. If had've been writing profiles on here at the time his would be modest at best.

I've always found it hard to have an opinion on Fletcher. Tbh, I still don't know what I think of him. I see both the Fletch for and against sides. The one particular aspect I've always wondered about with Fletcher is what is he supposed to be. I.E an AM a CM a deep lying playmaker...etc Teso says he is played out of position, but I don't quite understand what Fletch would offer further up the field. For instance he doesn't like intricacy and he doesn't shoot often (I know he's scored some peaches for Scotland) but I haven't seen him do anything of much for United. That can't all be down to tactical restrictions, surely?

On some players I will come straight out and say they are not MUQ. You can see the poorness oozing out of them and they don't have anything to offer. Players like Silvestre, P.N, Djemba, O'Shea...I think we can all agree these are poor players, even if they had the odd good game here and there their overall contribution for United is sub-par and not MUQ. With Fletch I perch on the fence, devoid of an opinion. He's 21 yrs old. Players like Keane, Robbo, Ince weren't even at the club at those ages and for the most part people didn't get to see them ripen before coming here. If Fletcher was serving his apprenticeship elsewhere before coming here as a more complete product people would not have the opportunity to slate him so.

On the other hand.... I watch our kids at reserve level a lot.. you see several CM's at that level that you immmediately get a vibe for, so much so that I rate them, even though unproven at 1st team level, as above Fletcher - I can see that they are about something at 17,18,19 and that they already have a niche that makes them stand out plus a very competent overall game.

For example without hesitation, in my mind D.Jones, is a better player than Fletcher. A better passer, better reader of the game, leader, attacker, shooting even tackling I would put him quite some distance ahead of Fletcher for and he is 2yrs younger. D.Gibson is really not that far behind and he is a big robust lad. I can't use the 'age card' for Fletcher in these instances so it leaves me a bit more perplexed.

Regarding the age thing it could also be difficult to ascertain what it is about Fletcher that keeps him in the 1st team of United.

When you consider we tolerate Ronaldo's erratic game because the talent we can all see within him is immense.

Rooney can almost do no wrong. And is up there as one of, if not the most important player we have.

Rossi is emerging, his talent is obvious.

We all know precisely why these two are in the team so young (and why Rossi is being raved about). At any given time you can see why. But where does all this leave Fletcher? What is it that his fans see in him and what is it his detractors see in the same run of games?

It's not just idiots taking a view either. In fact, nearly everyone on the forum has taken a side, most, well respected and proven over time to have sense in their heads. howard is vehement in his pronounced ..um..vitriole of Fletcher ...Johno seems to flit from one side to the other. Motter and Billy are in the Fletcher club and the list of posters taking a camp goes on. Why? What has Fletcher done so right or wrong for such pronounced camps?

What is it about this player that frequently has the fans up in arms?

If you dislike the player - can you not appreciate he is a work in progress?

If you like the player - can you say he offers the team anything that say a QF would not, what is it, for you, that suggests Fletcher is worthy of a starting xi spot at United?

We've always had little arguement tagged on to non-related threads about anything United where a Fletcher row just erupts from nowhere. We've had accomodation of the Fletch and Fletch appreciation threads. But we have never gotten to the bare bones of the issue. People in one camp point to a few of Fletch's best games people in the other camp point to almost every average game Fletcher has. But no one really puts down the tangibles for and against Fletch in no uncertain terms except howard (and his hammer to crush a grape approach)

Should Fletcher be a United starter, why for or against?

Let's keep this civil btw, no silly flame wars. I'm actually quite curious about the true thoughts of both camps because I can see both the reasons for and against the player.

Cheers.

Achtung · Jan 19, 2006

Why do I get the feeling I'll have a lot of work to do in this thread? ....

Dark Savante · Jan 19, 2006

I really hope you don't

lol, let's hope Motter does not censor those who oppose the Fletch as well!

Funnily enough, much like myself, I've never seen you have much of a good or bad word to say about Fletch. Do you sit atop the same fence as I on this issue?

Alan_V · Jan 19, 2006

I'm sort of like DS on this. Not much of an opinion, other than I hope he does well. That said, he was pretty horrible yesterday. You'd almost think Burton were wearing red with the passes he gave away. Maybe the rain was in his eyes

NYCgeezer · Jan 19, 2006

I have a similar opinion to DS:

I have faith in SAF's evaluations. There are times when I see great potential in Fletcher's abilities. However, there are also times when I am intensely frustrated with him.

Ultimately, at the moment, I do not always feel that Fletch is MUQ. I think that the reason he is given so much time is that we are lacking consistent CM's. I also think that if we do bring in a world class CM soon, he will spend the rest of his time developing as a non-starter, and will eventually regain his starting spot.

Achtung · Jan 19, 2006

Dark Savante said:

Funnily enough, much like myself, I've never seen you have much of a good or bad word to say about Fletch. Do you sit atop the same fence as I on this issue?
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Yeah, I guess I occasionally comment on Fletcher, but I'm not too opinionated on him one way or the other. My stand is that he can occasionally make a pass to open things up, and that positionally he is sound when it comes to aiding the defense. He'll also rarely make a truly bad pass (though I hear he did against Burton). However, he doesn't instill confidence in me that he has the vision to consistently help the offense, nor does he make me feel like he's a smart passer. He sometimes seems disconnected from the offense. I'll make the occasional comment on him looking for the square ball first as that's just generally what I see. I wouldn't call him a bad player, just not a great one either. With the way he generally plays, it can be hard to include him in a United starting XI, but then he often contributes positively when you least expect it. When he played with Keane, things usually seemed different. Now, he often seems rudderless out there. I think he still has potential and could one day become that kind of player, but right now I wish we had someone better than him. If he doesn't have a true breakout season at some point, its only going to get worse for him. In the end, he looks like he could definitely be a fine player, but right now I have trouble believing he could ever be great. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.

50 Euro · Jan 19, 2006

Achtung said:

Why do I get the feeling I'll have a lot of work to do in this thread? ....
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And I'll be actively monitoring this thread, ready to notify people that they've been placed on the FUCOF-FFS shortlist...

FUCOF-FFS!!

yikchi · Jan 19, 2006

I hated Fletcheer when he first started playing regular first team football and was our starting Right Midfielder.
Then when he moved to a more central position, I started to see he's out of postion out on the right... He started playing better as a CM and I started to think maybe he's got some potential there...

This season, after seeing Smith is not the answer to our CM situation I want Fletch to partner Scholes; and I think he's an improvement over Smith. Especially is the Aston Villa game when he play a beautiful through ball on Ruud's goal.

However, after Scholes is out due to his blurred vision, Fletch has been playing worse. I start to think if he's really going to be a good player, he should be showcasing his talent in these games when he's the main man in our CM tandems; instead it seems like he's trying to do much...like the mess we saw last night.

My conclusion: His role on our team should be a backup CM and should only be used to partner a more attacking CM in our 442.

Dark Savante · Jan 19, 2006

50 Euro said:

And I'll be actively monitoring this thread, ready to notify people that they've been placed on the FUCOF-FFS shortlist...

FUCOF-FFS!!
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Actually, this thread is for you to give us insight into why you are so pro-fletch! Feel free to do so!

Vermont Red · Jan 19, 2006

Full disclosure: I was solidly pro-Fletcher last season, soured on him early in this season and then threw my full support behind him again when his form improved. That being said, he was very poor against Burton.

Positives: Can make passes from midfield to create good chances for the forwards. Has a surprisingly powerful shot. Faster than he appears due to his spaz-like running style. Almost always in the right place. Does whatever is required.

Negatives: Inconsistent. Can make beautiful passes, but sometimes only to the opposition. Almost never shoots or even gets forward enough to do so. Not strong enough to be a consistent ball-winner. Unwilling (incapable) of stamping his influence on the team. No facial hair.

Fletcher could use this season to cement his place as one of the CMs for the future at United. So far, he hasn't made a strong case for this. He is superior to all the alternatives to partner Scholes but still is not convincing as the answer. Assuming that things continue in this way, other players will get chances to convince and Fletcher may never be a fixture on United's first team. I think he can do it but I don't know that he will.

Jayhawk · Jan 19, 2006

I think Achtung is right, here. Fletch is what I would call competent. He gives a hard effort and doesn't usually make dumb mistakes. He's not a star, and would probably be the weak link on any side capable of winning the European Cup, or Premiership, but he won't lose us a bunch of games either. Just as winning usually depends on Rooney having a good day, sometimes avoiding a loss might depend on Fletch not having a bad one.

Motterman · Jan 19, 2006

Here's what I posted in "The Last Darren Fletcher Thread" in November:

Hello, my friends. I've been stewing over this decision for days now... I've even written posts coming close to this, but have chosen to delete them, instead of posting. It's a tough decision. You've staked your own reputation, flamed people for disagreeing, insulted their knowledge of football, etc. on a player making it at the club you love and support. Invariably, the day finally comes when you can't deny the signs that have been written on the wall... and this, my friends, is where I have to pause.

I've followed Darren Fletcher's career since he first had sniffs at getting some minutes in the first team. He came highly touted as the next big thing, (Beckham's name was even bandied about for a time) and despite the gangling gait and smallish frame, it appeared that their just might be something special about this young lad. You hear about him leading the youth and reserve teams from the middle of the park, and you can't wait to see it happen on the big stage. But, alas, the boy is played on the wing, to "cut his teeth" in the day to day rigors of the Premiership. He struggles mightily as the wing position does not suit him at all, and he appears lost and over-run. How can a lad who struggles with the pace of the game isolated on the wing, ever get comfortable in the middle of all this madness on Saturday afternoons? You tell yourself, "Well, they don't all roll off the assembly line as Steven Gerrard." However, hidden in seemingly useless minutes on the pitch, there is invariably a pass or movement that gives you that hint of quality, just waiting to gush through. It's small, a tiny fraction, but it's there. You know it. "Just give him a game in 'his' position, for a change." However, he never does, and is left on the wing to flounder and earning a reputation among the United faithful that he's crap, rubbish, and only on the team because he's Scottish.

A year on, Fletcher starts to get moved into the middle, and forms a reputable partnership with Keane and settles into a roll where he's linking Keane/and the defence with Scholes/and the offence. The team looks good as Fletcher is doing the job he's asked to do. The probing passes are now 2 or 3 a game, but he's mostly in there to switch the point of attack. It appears he's under the instructions to keep possession and let the other players run the attack. Fletcher is injured, and United hit a patch of indifferent form. People are perplexed, as it's only Fletcher who's out and he rarely does anything noticeable. The team continues to struggle until Fletcher makes his return and all of the sudden, the team's form lifts. And until it's apparent that there's no catching Chelsea in the league, the team plays well, especially in the FA Cup where Fletch shines again, even in this "linking" role he's been playing.

Fast forward to this season. Keane is out, we're missing our rock solid left back, and our overlapping right back who's probably our best crosser. United are struggling to gain any width and seem bereft of ideas through the middle. Fletch is partnered with a defensive midfielder who's really a striker and just learning the position, and Scholes isn't a patch of his former self at present. It's almost as if Fletch is being asked to play the role he did last season as well as Keano and Scholes' roles!

Now, here's where I'm going to pick up from earlier.

I've given Fletcher support for over 2 years now, and I still think he can be a big player. He shows it when playing for Scotland, so it's there. Of course, that's part of the problem. He's not the same player for us, as he is for Scotland. This isn't a rare phenomenon with footballers either. (wait until my "Last Ronaldo Thread" hehe...)

Here's the thing: I'm not sure that Fletcher is ever going to be the player I had hoped he would turn out to be. I was REALLY counting on him to come good this season, maybe even start to grow into some sort of leader on the pitch for us. Sadly, this hasn't happened. He lacks confidence on the pitch, his passing isn't positive, and his incisive passing game (which I think is key for him) has all but disappeared as well. I was hoping being called out by Keane in such a public way would light a fire under the lad, but it hasn't happened. Hopefully, this "clear the air" meeting will be of help to the team as a whole, but especially to Fletcher.

He may very well be the next Savage, Wallwork, or Greening, a big fish in a small pond, and ultimately, that might be the route he needs to go in order to finally reach his potential as a footballer. I don't know. It's really hard to judge individual performances when the whole team is stuck in some sort of general malaise.

I'm not resigning from FUCOF-FFS!, I still believe in Fletcher.

He needs to step up and take the greatness out there waiting for him... cause if he doesn't, he needs to go, with the others who failed to take it, when the great purge happens.
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I'd only add that since then, he's taken some steps forward with his form generally improving. He's had a bad game here or there however, which I would point out is typical of most younger players, but I've been encouraged with his play lately.

The problem with Fletcher is that there's no flashiness to his game, or one thing you can point to, that makes him stand out in a game most of the time. However, you can definitely tell when we miss his influence in the middle of the pitch - in a different way than Scholes, Keane, etc. to be sure - but it's still apparent, at least to me. I'm not saying that there aren't 20 players in the world (or league) that couldn't do a better job of running things in the midfield for us today, but he's young and growing, and could still turn out to be something really special. At least, Ferguson thinks so, and that's enough for me. I'm seen enough potential there to continue backing him....

Up the FUCOFF-FFS!

Rei de Boston · Jan 19, 2006

I am a mild supporter of Fletcher. I see a lot of good in him. Others have already listed his good qualities. I trust SAF's evaluations and he has been touting Fletch for a long time now. Ultimately I think this is the biggest gripe about Fletch. He is still very young age wise but that isn't what he feels like as a fan. He has had so many games, admitedly some out of possition, that it feels like he is a much older player. When you combine that with the fact, like Motter said, Fletch isn't flashy that tends to bring heavy criticism. You have to try to see what Fletcher is adding to the team whereas someone like a Rooney, Rossi, or Ronaldo it is much easier to see what they bring to the game.

Ultimately I think Fletcher is a slow developer, a late bloomer which is sad because now is the time where he has the best opportunity to silence his critics. I think he will become a good player for us one day but I don't think he is going to shine through right away. 2 more years is probably a fair estimation of his timetable for full development.

Dark Savante · Jan 19, 2006

Purely playing Devil's Advocate here, a detractor would ask/say is Fletcher worth the 2yrs of development? And why does he in particular get such leeway to develop when players like Kleb barely got a sniff of first team footy?

Is the player Fletcher is supposed to become really worth all of this effort?

------

Speaking for myself here and no longer playing D.A I would disagree with you on one thing with your Fletcher assessment. I couldn't care less if he never did a trick or any kind of flash ever in his nited career, as long as he could take command of games and control the pace of a game in either direction I'd be happy. My only disparaging words for Fletch are that I've always wanted him to 'be about something' anything. i.e a factor in some department for us. When I watch him play, I'm never really quite sure of what he is trying to do or if he has 'a plan' which is rather strange for a central type midfielder. I don't look at it as a bad thing nor a good one. It just generally confuses me with him.

50 Euro · Jan 19, 2006

Dark Savante said:

Actually, this thread is for you to give us insight into why you are so pro-fletch! Feel free to do so!
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Alright then, I'll see what I can do shortly, for about the 105th time...

Achtung · Jan 19, 2006

Rei de Boston said:

Ultimately I think Fletcher is a slow developer, a late bloomer which is sad because now is the time where he has the best opportunity to silence his critics.
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Well, don't know if we could yet call him a truly late bloomer. I mean, he's not yet 22 years old. A player like Lampard, for example, didn't shine regularly until after his 25th birthday. The big difference being that he wasn't in a pressure situation until then, unlike Fletcher. We notice every little mistake Fletcher makes because there are so many more people watching him. Plus when the most successful manager in British history touts you so highly, well, people expect great things. Have we seen those great things yet? Probably not quite.

Motterman · Jan 19, 2006

I'm a bit concerned that DS said he never rated him highly. That doesn't jive with what I've heard from others, but I know DS better than them... so...

I still have faith though. Remember, Fletch was a victim of some long term injuries coming through that set him back at least a year, if not more. So, he's a younger 21 year old, if you can say that.

Numquam Moribimur · Jan 19, 2006

do i rate fletcher as a player right now ? No 2-3 years now, i have a feeling that fletcher we'll be a great player - but the one question i have is when fergie's leaves who ever the next manager is he going to rate fletch as highly as fergie does now.

on side not ...does any one else notice how fletcher flaps his arms while he's on the pitch

Dark Savante · Jan 19, 2006

Motterman said:

I'm a bit concerned that DS said he never rated him highly. That doesn't jive with what I've heard from others, but I know DS better than them... so...

I still have faith though. Remember, Fletch was a victim of some long term injuries coming through that set him back at least a year, if not more. So, he's a younger 21 year old, if you can say that.
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I've been indifferent really, not sure of the player. I've never had strong feelings he has a godliness we can untap, but like others have said, he may be a late bloomer - they're the hardest to call.

Vermont Red · Jan 19, 2006

Someone brought up a good point that has also been on my mind recently, the comparison between Fletcher and Lampard. Obviously, right now there is no comparison. How was Lampard rated at 21? Just curious.

Dark Savante · Jan 19, 2006

Vermont Red said:

Someone brought up a good point that has also been on my mind recently, the comparison between Fletcher and Lampard. Obviously, right now there is no comparison. How was Lampard rated at 21? Just curious.
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Lampard was a lot better then Fletch at 21. I have to be honest.

Vermont Red · Jan 19, 2006

Dark Savante said:

Lampard was a lot better then Fletch at 21. I have to be honest.
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Even though I'm a Fletcher fan, I hope that nobody feels like they need to lie to me. So I take it that everyone in the Prem knew that Lampard would be a star one day. Certainly, Fletcher doesn't have the same cache. I still think that it's there for his taking. Maybe he needs to be like Rocky in "Rocky II" when Adrian comes out of the coma and tells Rocky to do one thing for her, "win".

Dark Savante · Jan 19, 2006

Vermont Red said:

Even though I'm a Fletcher fan, I hope that nobody feels like they need to lie to me. So I take it that everyone in the Prem knew that Lampard would be a star one day. Certainly, Fletcher doesn't have the same cache. I still think that it's there for his taking. Maybe he needs to be like Rocky in "Rocky II" when Adrian comes out of the coma and tells Rocky to do one thing for her, "win".
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I think the difference with Fletcher and someone like Lampard is that Fletch is coming through at the best club in England after the likes of Scholes - truly world stars.

Lampard was expected to be a great player....by West Ham's standards. Not Manchester United's so it's hard. The general level of the players however is quite large. Lampard was a much better player at 21 then Fletcher is...you could tell he was about something he had impetus to his game whereas Fletcher, to me, does not. If you know what I mean?

Redfoot · Jan 19, 2006

I like Fletcher, maybe someday I'll post enough pro Fletcher stuff to be part of FUCOF-FFS. The times that I've seen him play I see flashes of potential. I think the biggest thing is the fact that he's still 21 and that he's following players like Scholes and Keane. It has to be tough to follow such a pairing, especially since no one knows which one he'll be closer to, in terms of style, so he's compared to both.

50 Euro · Jan 19, 2006

You're well on your way, Redfoot :cool

OK, here goes...

A few years back, few saw anything remotely positive in young Fletcher, in his early performances for the club. Motter and I [pats self on the back/] were two of this small group that did see something, and joined forces, (with tongue firmly planted in cheek) and formed FUCOF-FFS!! Yet, while we always had fun with it (often at the KFC's expense, LOL) we firmly believed that the criticism Fletcher received was much too harsh, and frequently came in the form of one-sentence spewings from people (obviously not talking about DS or howard) that were only seemingly capable of appreciating a Ronaldo step-over, a Rooney wonder goal, a ball-winning tackle from Keano, or a bit of cool defending from Rio.

Over time more and more people began to rate Fletcher, and my jaw hit the floor when even Johno starting saying nice things about him
Fletch did the dirty work, and made things easy for Scholes and Keano, simple as that.

As SAF said recently, his gait is "coltish", which cracked me up when I read it.

He's currently not gonna stamp his influence on a match like Keano so often did, but his work-rate is excellent and he almost always makes himself available as an outlet. In the last year, he's made great strides in reading the game and his positioning. He always tracks back, and if, for example, Gary goes on a run down right, Fletch will slide over and cover for him, preventing a counter. I haven't posted much about Fletcher lately because others have said it better than I ever could.

Billy always does a great job answering the Fletch critics.
Teso, well, everyone knows his views on the matter
VR has been a quite active Fletch supporter, and I always enjoy his posts on the subject.
There have been many others as well, but the above have stood out for me

I'll always discuss Fletcher's abilities and shortcomings, but I really have grown tired of this debate (almost as much as the "Keano is past it/sell him" for the last four years, and the latest SerieLiga (trademarked by yours truly), flavor-of-the-moment ridiculous, CM-style, transfer thread rumors...

It's funny, one of the few things I remember about the session Motter and I had when Billy was in DC a month back, was the discussion we had about FUCOF-FFS!!
Early in the evening Billy and gildarkevin were chatting about something, and Motter and I were having a laugh about this very subject. We both were reminiscing about the early days, and about how when FUCOF-FFS was formed, it wasn't to promote Fletcher as the next Keano, or even as an automatic selection for the team sheet. It was simply to give some support to a young lad that was getting loads of undeserved stick.
If it were up to me, Fletch wouldn't even be starting right now, as our 1st choice midfield would look like this:
Giggs-Scholes-Keano (not to open another can of worms)-Ronaldo
In addition, I'd love to see us land someone like de Jong...
But I still believe that Fletch is no doubt MUQ and hope he continues to develop. I enjoy moments like the "goal" against Chelsea (which came directly on the heels of the last Fletcher thread, so watch out YSB's), but also love seeing Fletch work his arse off and make a nuisance of himself, especially when it's to the opposing side

So in closing...

If you don't rate Fletcher, no big deal, but baseless vile will quickly get you on the FUCOF-FFS!! shortlist, a place no one should want to be. Do a search, the unlucky few that have been shortlisted in the past don't seem to frequent these parts anymore, do they?...

With that, I'm off for a pint, good night and good luck...