News: Dutch players at home and abroad worthy to be tracked in connection with the Dutch NT - Part 4

Link to past thread. Can come in handy in the future for looking up things.

Thread title the same to keep things clear and organised as we have quite some Dutch NT threads going on.

To expand on that point. Many people don't understand why there are so many threads and get confused all the time. Every so now and then questions are raised about why so many threads exist. Some others however, ask for more divisions. I will try to explain what is going on here in a simple matter (if I explain it to simple, don't be offended as this subject comes back every time and I try to kill all confusion). The regular people can skip this of course.

I see all threads of Dutch NT as a Venn diagram:



Thread 1:

• This thread. (no link needed)

Here we discuss the players performances at their club (in Eredivisie or the leagues outside the Netherlands) that are normally getting a call up, are close to get a call up or should be getting a call up in your opinion, for the Dutch NT.

Overlap example and cause for confusion?

An example would be that you saw a game of Huntelaar yesterday and soon as the game of Turkey is played in a few days, discussions about players and their club performances will be dragged into the "2014 WC qualification thread". How Hunter scored yesterday 1 and RVP today 3 and towards whatever implication that has to lead. That's the players at their club but also relevant for the NT and so, also for the qualification games. Simple example.


Thread 2:

• The U15 to U21 thread.

Here we discuss the activity's of the players that are called up for the Dutch youth teams. Whether this is for their club or in fact for a Dutch youth tournament. So no division as with the senior team (we have lumped both subjects together as many kids simply don't play in Eredivisie or other top divisions of course, but some are)

Overlap example and cause for confusion?

For example very young players doing well like Maher that commute between U21 and the big Orange team. Maher's today's game could be discussed in the "qualification thread" or in the in the "Dutch players abroad or at home thread" or even in the "U15-21 thread" as U21 will also play a game on 7 September and youngsters performing at club can be discussed in that thread anyway. So a lot of overlap, it's up to you to determine the games relevance towards the subject you want to discuss and then find the fitting thread for it.


Thread 3:

• The WC qualification thread.

Here we discuss the Dutch NT in the lead up to a game or games in our qualification process.

Overlap example and cause of confusion:

This can overlap clearly with the tread "players at home and abroad thread". You can weigh players against each other and drag in how they perform at a club to make a point about whether he should be playing in the qualification games or not, like this post of mine: Post. Or the other way around. Talk about qualification games in the club thread for them to point out discrepancies in performances for both teams. A certain RVP comes to mind.


Thread 4:

• The Match threads. (example)

This speaks for itself. There is nothing general about. It's game day and the threads can be opened days before to discuss all the details for the specific games.

Overlap example and possible cause for confusion:

Of course there will be in the days before the game mainly the same talk as there would be in the qualification thread. No example needed. But as people see games on a stream or TV there will be a lot of comments on the game play itself which would under snow the normal thread and reach the 500 mark very fast.


Thread 5:

• The General Dutch NT thread.

This thread was more dominant when we had less thread divisions of course. Now it is only relevant for the most general talk about the NT. History can be one part. General jokes. Great compilations of past tournaments. Maybe things about the KNVB organisation as those tend to be more long term things. Statistics over certain episodes. Actually I think that the coach appointment would have been a great subject to have had discussed in this thread. I see it as I nice option to have when you have something to say but it doesn't really fit in any other thread.

Overlap example and possible cause for confusion:

Well surely this one is confusing as it is a bit of the mother thread, but all child threads have made her lonely and live alone now. Not much traffic, but it remains having it's value. You need to know the existence of the other threads to not get confused. So check above ones first and if it does not fit then this thread is a good option. Examples of overlap are pretty much every subject.

Specific:
-----------------------------------------

1. Young U-xx players at their club or at junior NT's.
2. Senior Players at their club.
3. The team in the qualification process.
4. The games.

General:
-----------------------------------------

1. The Dutch NT in general.

Hope I have explained it well enough.

Cheers.

RVN scored his first goal for United against Fulham. He scored his first hattrick for United against Southampton.

RVP did exactly the same.

That first post should be made into it's own thread and stickied and updated when a new Dutch stuff thread is made. Just my honest opinion

A bit on the RVP at United/Oranje:

RVP didn't have a proper preseason and hence he was only used as 2nd half substitute against Everton. The problem was Rooney was also playing and there was lack of communication as to who would play #10 role (Kagawa was substituted if I'm not wrong). Both the players came too deep for the ball leaving no striker up front. Or both went into the box anticipating crosses/passes but Everton's energetic midfield cut out the passing options through center while the defenders dealt admirably with the crosses. Rooney is known for neglectig his body during preseason and it's always a tough task for Sir Alex to get him to shape within first 4-6 weeks. So he decided to bench Rooney and start RVP at Old Trafford against Fulham. The fluidity worked in first half where Kagawa played the designated #10 role like Sneijder for Oranje and RVP was found constantly in the box. But once Kagawa went off and Rooney came on, it's back to the old debate.

Unluckily, Rooney got injured and RVP started at Southampton with Kagawa behind him. As long as Kagawa played, RVP was used as CF waiting for crosses from Valencia. The problem with this system was Welbeck was used on left who is not a winger. The same problem we get when Huntelaar, RVP and Sneijder play together. RVP can't get into Sneijder's space and he is ineffective on the wing. It also doesn't use Huntelaar's capabilities as pure CF. But Kagawa got substituted (yet to get completely adjusted to physical EPL) and a pure CF Hernandez came on for Welbeck. With the introduction of Scholes and Nani, Man United reverted to a 4-4-1-1 or a lopsided 4-3-3. Nani on left, Valencia on right, Carrick sitting deep while Scholes played CM. RVP could use his #10 abilities and the Southampton defenders were dragged around by Hernandez leaving space for RVP in front of defense. The more I watch Man United with RVP, the more they seem to have similar problems to Oranje in accommodating two strikers and a #10.

Both Rooney and RVP can play in CF or #10 and they need to develop understanding as to who would play at what role during the match. RVP scored 37 goals playing as pure CF for Arsenal last season. Rooney oscillated between CF and #10 roles during the season and scored 35 goals. Rooney played as pure CF in 2009-10 season and scored 34 goals for Man Utd. Rooney was also used a lot as wide player during Ronaldo's last 2 seasons for Man Utd (2007-08 and 2008-09) though that led to his poor returns in terms of goals. Can we play Sneijder in Scholes' role so that RVP can play in #10 with Robben on LW and Narsingh on RW?

PS
Good to see RVP shake off the fluffed penalty and maintain his focus. If that was Rooney, he'd have performed even more poorly after missing. One year ago, United fans were mocking RVP when his penalty as saved by De Gea at Old Trafford (that was also 3rd match of the season). One year later, they are chanting his name. How the tables have turned eh?

RVP must be in starting XI for Oranje, the best players need to be accomodated by Van Gaal.

I toyed around with this idea before the EC. To effectively accommodate 2 strikers, one needs to be an out-and-out type (KjH), the other needs to be willing to roam around, pick the ball from deep, and played withdrawn (RvP). So it's more like a 4-4-1-1 or some derivative of this. The problem was that Van Marwijk was stubborn... he convinced that 4-2-3-1 was the way to go, and to his defense, there wasn't much time to experiment with a new formation.

Unfortunately, LvG is even more rigid and stubborn than BvM. His ego is so big. I honestly can't see him playing other than a 4-3-3, even if the whole world against him. So our best bet in my opinion is that RvP being surrounded by the right casts, gets the services he long desires, and (hopefully) he finally turn his switches on and scores a LOT of goals.

The most annoying thing about LvG is that he will make up rules, then he will be throwing them into the the world with a declaratory voice and then very demonstrative tells the press how he acted according to those rules, .... almost in a proud manner. Like .... "look how much of a guy of principal I am". "Don't you think I am awesome?"

With van Gaal the game gets changed often. The goal is not anymore to qualify. Nope. The game is that we witness a man who dares to stick with his rules even if the whole world is against him for doing so. Actually that is a necessity for van Gaal. What epicness is there, if after the process he can't point to himself in case of success and people tell him how right he was.

Rules, such as "not calling players up who are busy having a transfer". The deadline has just passed in most cases. So what does that even mean? I saw Nigel de Jong thrown into a game of AC Milan and was fine. Like he played for them already many years. Van Gaal has this one mixed up. Players that are busy with a transfer, because they are frustrated in their attempt to get to another club, as the club they are tight with is keeping him to his contract and does not want to cooperate, tend to do badly. Modric last season, when he wanted to go to Chelsea for example. Or Demy de Zeeuw during his time at AZ at one point. Players tend to suck then, as their mind is in a state of indecision. When the choice is made, clarity kicks with extra focus as a result as your mind is preparing you for a new challenge. Many players that make a transfer and don't have to adapt to a big new quality ceiling, are actually excellent at the start. VDV after coming from Real Madrid to Spurs was tearing the EPL apart in his first months. After that, he started to fade to some extend.

Van Gaal will make up rules, find pride in following them and if he fails with those rules, then his defiance to follow them in the face of great public resistance allows him to feel a martyr. When he succeeds, it allows him to feel a self righteous divine being in the world of football. Either way, we end up him worshiping him more.

I think a journalist with some common sense needs to stand up and question all his self made up rules. Especially those jokers at VI, who act like people daring to open their mouth, but don't ask the relevant questions.

For me Van Gaal has to wake up it's just ridiculous that the KNVB would bring him back after his shite performance with Oranje of 2002.

Cannot say this enough the man screwed up a team that could have won the event and now with a team that is less talented and in crisis does not lend to Van Gaal's stupid ways.

Prospect for Oranje has to be De Guzman who has excelled in the early season for Swansea. I think he would fit quite nicely in a holding role were he can link play.

What have you seen about the defensive side of de Guzman that make you say that? Just curious.

I am impressed with JdG's crosses... delivered with pinpoint precision and power. Granted, I've only seen ~60 minutes of Swansea this season (and highlights of the remaining matches). But JdG never failed to make those highlights. This past weekend, he made a very good assist, and could have had a couple more with better finishing of his teammates. Also, he's done well with free kicks. I don't think he is deployed necessarily as a holding/defensive role, seems to me he's more a box-to-box/all-around type. He thrives under Laudrup's attacking style. Will be interesting to monitor and watch his progression this season... first year in English league is always tough, he needs to get used to the pace and physicality. Regardless, he's a wild card on my wish list, and may well surprise us. Finger crossed.

de Guzman is the same type of player as Fer but not as good.

I have always seen JDG as VDV-light? His on ball quality great, but defensive weak. I will start to look for changes in his off ball movement, but I think that is of very recent date, or Feyenoord supporters have to chip in here saying something different.

Relevant for Anita.

Seedorf scored 2 goals in like 2 minutes today:









And in the second half he finsighed things up with a nice assist:





Joker did not even run to him for a thank you. Oh well, the staff was happy to celebrate with him.

Did anyone see Arno Vermeulen criticize van der Wiel for wearing shades during an interview? First the headphones, now shades..... sad level of commentary/"analysis." Huge generational gap.

I haven't seen it, but Vermeulen and the NOS are there to broadcast the game, they aren't getting paid to play the moral police.

******** that guy.

Buttner in a United game at the moment. Remains a funny sight. His crosses have been bad so far, football wise for the rest pretty comfortable. Welbeck could not follow a simple 1-2 with him and he is able to get past his man, making some rushes to the front.

anyone watching Elia in the Bremen game? I can't find a single good link for it

This one?

I'm watching the Man U game now, but That looks like the same stream that every other website had posted which freezes every five seconds

Buttner with the assist!

Buttner with the goal!