Dutch players at home and abroad worthy to be tracked in connection with the Dutch NT - Part 1

I was interested in how other forum members see his development and the ability he shows, that's why I laid down my view with examples, not necessarily disagreeing with you or anybody, more to come to a better picture of him to see his strengths/weaknesses and maybe do a post like I did for Clasie.


Cheers

Well Holland and DM is just insane. If you ever go to the beautiful game on Bigsoccer there are lists where Netherlands tops the lists in that field position beating all other country's in the world for top 100 players ever. We just keep pouring out quality DM's one after the other. Not to say immediately that Fer is next but another talent. Have to say about Fer, that it very physical with him. Football wise Clasie is much better. Clasie is a bit flat and will probably never score as much as Fer. I would really get pissed off when Fer is given the nod before Clasie like Maher got. Both Maher and Fer do not have the handling speed and the ability to increase the quality of the overall game.

Well we are basicly f***ed for left back position. 4 months before the Euro and our regular left back is played out of the starters team by a 17 year old and has come back from serious injury. Braafheid is now bench player. van Aanholt is a energy player, just like Fer. Schaars was also bad on that position against England. I blame van marwijk for not solving this situation and anticipating with his selection for this problem. How many months ago have we said that left back needs to be solved and that Pieters was not good enough. Why hasn't he ever tryed out Kuyt there and played a winger instead. That he can play his ideal player, but at the same time have a player that can reach the opponents back line. In the group stage, left back will face Nani and Mueller. It will have to be a more tested person IMO than van Aanholt, who is defensive really not that good (more offensive with his rushes).

Yeah, the level of defending in Eredivisie makes it harder to rate players and how they would turn out at higher level. I don't rate Narsinh, but Ola's goals and assists for me are more intelligent. Drenthe is excellent on the right wing (than play Robben left), Elia has just been stupid and I don't see how you can call up somebody with 1 Serie A game under his belt and Babel is not that bad. I will maybe watch a Hoffenheim game soon again. I don't follow Babel to much.

Great point! The encouraging fact is that Ola has been able to translate his game in the European competition. He's been getting different flavors of defenses around the continent. I think overall this would work to his favor, it allows him to grow and add more weapons in his arsenal. BTW, I am VERY glad that Ola scored a very nice goal from a long shoot outside the box. I made a comment several months ago that, in addition to dribbles, crosses and other trickeries, he needed to add shooting to his routine. Hopefully he's becoming a more prominent goal scorer.

BTW, I still think the club selection (+ transfer expectations) are the main culprit of Elia, Drenthe and Babel setbacks. All three are still young though, so plenty of time to recover.

I think Fer and Clasie will probably be the CM pairing for the WC in Brazil complimented with Strootman and Anita as back-ups from what we know now. They can be our Vieira and Makelele.

Maher will most likely be used in the Sneijder role.

I agree and I think he has a very big chance of making the squad for the EC with everything going on with the rest of our LW players. Narsingh will undoubtedly have Robben and Kuyt in front of him in the picking order.

edit: ... like Clasie can IMO

Maher of course improves the quality of an overall game. fer is for now in that department under both players IMO.

Well...Babel has been playing every match & has been performing thoroughly average & consistently. He had 4-5 great games at the start of the season but since then has been mediocre throughout. Not Oranje level.


Drenthe has the X-factor wether people like it or not. But he will be a 20 minute impact player like what Elia was. Drenthe needs to get his head sorted,get more experience,fall down less in the penalty box hoping for penalties & keep his head up & look out for a pass sometimes because he has got goof vision too.

And he MUST improve his Defensive Work Rate. I am shocked as he was once a LB. He just does not defend as a winger. I mean if Robben defends much more than him. Playing him & Robben will give huge head-aches to our poorly defensive Full-Backs.

Elia,I rate him as the biggest talent of Holland in the last many years. Insane dribbling ability & speed for his age. Decent passer,average shooter,not a great crosser. Huge waste of talent. Needs to move away from Italy & Juve because 45 minutes are a huge joke. He did decent in 1 Cup match after that as a sub but still does not get any chance.

Arsenal out of CHL. RVP choked again. Heard he missed 2-3 sitters. No idea how MVB was.

RVP was one of the best players on the pitch. Why don't you watch the game before judging a player. Unless you have a predetermined notion ...

Elia what is going on with him? He never sees the pitch. Has he been injured? Cannot believe he did not move during the transfer window.

Just not making the first team or the bench for that matter. Not good enough in the opinion of the coach. Juve has not been beaten in Serie A as of yet. Strong site.

He should have left during the transfer. His loss, we now have Ola John, who has less speed, but more vision, a better assist and is also more versatile. Bad thing is he is unproven on the highest level. However when Afellay is fit again I am sure we will play him plus Robben and after that energy bunny Kuyt, so the out and out wingers will be the choice after that anyway. Babel also still an option. Drenthe does not track back indeed as Mr S says and has ruled himself out because of that for the NT, as Bertje rates that higher than being capable of attacking. Elia can look out for a new club in the summer.

Keep filling us in MR S.

I think we should collectively stop responding to you

Well, wasnot that what I suggested aloooong time ago

A positive not about Maher. I read in an interview he was disappointed that he didnot make it to the final Orange group against England, but he is confident he will soon. So that points towards a decision he has made

I'm watching the Juventus/Bologna match right now and don't understand at all why Conte plays Vucinic. He really makes terrible decisions. He's on left wind today in a 4-3-3 and Elia really should be playing!!!

RVP actually missed 1 Sitter which he should have slotted in with almost the full net in view. I completely disagree that he was one of the best. There is a limit to fanboyism. The best thing RVP did in that match was that KICK-ASS penalty. That was awesome.

Other than that there was 1 Diagonal Chance where he could have put Walcott clean in front of goal on the right side but had a horrible 1st touch which messed it. If this was Hunter he would have been buried for it.

Yes if you look back through this or the previous thread you will see many people putting salt on every wrong move Huntelaar made at Schalke .... or you will in fact not see a single one of those posts.

Being pushed in a discussion is something else than campaigning against players. If you are so focussed on this issue, why not stop throwing dirt and run a positive campaign? Post video clips of KJH owning Bundesliga clubs or tell about it in a fair and balanced way (mentioning he also missed a penalty for example like last time). Many people don't follow Bundesliga but EPL, La Liga or even Serie A.

If there would be a reasonable concerning trend going on at Arsenal then making people aware is no problem, but he is prime candidate to become EPL player of the year. He is together with Huntelaar the only Dutch player having a really good season.

I to think he should have buried that chance, but how many times has he bailed out Arsenal? Rosicky was great, but should have passed the ball more in front of him, so he could shoot in one time. Now he had to wall pass it back. Song messed up in his decision making in the last minute, but so what. It was a great football night. The hero's of this night, were the villains of that night in Milan. If you look at it over two legs, it has less to do with RVP and more with a team not being strong enough. Even if he made that ball, it was only 4-4. They would still not be there.

My problem is this ridiculous level of hypocrisy. This was a CHL knock-out match & Arsenal got knocked out. At 4-4 the match would have been tied with minutes to play & the momentun on Arsenal's side in a match at Arsenal's home stadium & their GK is a decent penalty saver too. Lets not have different yardsticks for judging. He screwed up. No issues in admitting it.

You cant miss those chances. You really cant. This Hero,Villan does not matter. Neither does the 1st Leg matter. Again you are shielding RVP because you feel like he is a mini-Bergkamp at Arsenal.

The match was in RVP's hands. Everything could have been forgotten,the 1st leg,the misses. If this was missed by Walcott he would have been buried. It was a HUGE miss. Lets not by hypocritical about it.

And I have already stated my reasons for not liking RVP. I dont need to repeat it again. RVP is chosen ahead of Huntelaar & then he better justify that.

The other thing about rubbing a salt into a Hunter miss. You are welcome to do so. I dont see many people following Schalke so I see it futile to discuss his misses. He did miss a penalty. But it was a great save & not really a very weak penalty. And he did score once or twice in that match too.

RVP is supposed to be the No.1 ST in the world & EPL player of the season & so so on. Then he better justify that. He better justify that by scoring in CRUCIAL moments for Arsenal & also for the Oranje NT since he is chosen ahead of Hunter.

Edit - I do find it very ironical that you have started this we have 2 Great Strikers,lets support them both campaign when a few weeks back I was one screaming about this while you buried Huntelaar & never gave any recognition to even a EL hattrick. Remember the penguin image or saying Luk should be ahead of Huntelaar. Or saying Huntelaar is NOT A FOOTBALLER.

Those were highly insulting & you literally buried the guy. Now this is fairly hypocritical of you to say I am spreading dirt when I am criticizing Van Persie & I have every right to do it as you had the right to criticize Huntelaar.

Not really bothered to read all that nonsense. Just thought its funny drb literally burried huntelaar

Still waiting when you start pointing out what the hypocrisy is ...

What? That's it?

You haven't showed me the discrepancy between how Huntelaar is held accountable to RVP. For hypocrisy there must be metric laid down by me or other people and applied differently for both players. I hear you only using big words, but contrary to you I don't think those create much emotions. Point out what the metric is and how it is applied differently. The point raised about Huntelaar has always been how bad of a footballer he is outside the 16 and how he is a flat track bully.

What are the first words used by me with the 4th indention mr Mr S, having the patience to respond to you? Can you read? If so, you can see in my estimation he should have made that chance. However if you want to make the statement true that he "choked again" then the burden of prove is on you to show me or us trends. You can't pinpoint on every single missed chance, as that will come with the job of a striker. So in that light I follow up with the sentence that he has often bailed out Arsenal, the opposite of choking.

Here an extra long video to see how much stronger Liverpool was and how he gave his team 3 point, the first team to win on Anfield this season making securing CL for next year more likely, which is far more important money wise for a club like Arsenal than just advancing 1 round in the CL.

Liverpool vs Arsenal

What would be the consequence from this new introduced dimension of you? That people have to look at Schalke matches and look at KJH's games at the chances he misses? He does miss chances, I have seen them. Not the way I prefer to look at matches and come storming in a thread with those though. Provide us with some nice footage of KJH Mr.S. .

Wrong

Ferguson always says that he wants every game 8 players to be at their best. He knows from 25 year experience you can't have a team top performing week in week out. In Milan other players were unlucky, like Vermealen, who was great in this game. To win this game being down 4-0, everybody had to be perfect, but RVP was not perfect. That high norm ways created with the game in Milan, where others failed.

Your qualifications are off as usual and you can keep them for yourself. A first leg like Arsenal had, demands a perfect game from everybody. With today's programme you will not get 11 players playing perfect games. RVP being one of them, but even Song (who was great) made a wrong passing decision in the final minute.

Well the first leg was more about conceding and the only chance of the game was for RVP who made a great shot just saved by the keeper.

Walcott plays bad games more often than good games. Has 5 good games and then 1 great game. Despite that fickle ratio he is still a starter. So nonsense again.

It was a pretty big miss yes.

I think you don't even know what that word means. Hypocritical would be if people blame Huntelaar for missing big chances, but there are none here. The issue about Huntelaar is his lack of footballing ability, not contributing to football solution power of a team, that is essential to have enough solution versatility for the different match ups a tournament provide. A player like Huntelaar makes the football static and predictable and easy to shut down, like against Germany.

Nor was it asked of you. In fact, if you have any ability to read a room, people are fed up with the style you bring it and so I thought I would suggest to you an alternative way to channel all that energy of yours.

At club? Why. RVP will continue to be bad for country, good for club. Huntelaar will do better against the NT noob teams, but has been equally unimpressive against hard opponents. England was a good game from him but England defensive 4 had 15 caps together. I wanted to see him against Terry, Ferdinand and Cole to see something really new. Also you make this all about scoring goals again, circumventing Huntelaars inability to play football. The big picture is to get players occupying positions so RVP can function excellent and make Holland Euro champs.

No it was a hint that you are now putting salt on every action of a player you want out.

How does that even make sense? You want to mention RVP's miss, everybody has seen, but not those of KJH, because nobody has seen them. IMO if you are determined to take this ad hoc road, then it would give more justification to tell something especially about those.

You should have mentioned it, if you were concerned to be fair and balanced. Another person less so, but you are someone on a quest.

Not supposed. He has earned to be in the race for that honour. If he continues at this pace, I am sure he will get it.

No it is a natural consequence of his portrait ability and performance. I hope he does not go playing the way you formulate it, that creates negative tension. I hope he enjoys himself on the pitch.

Makes no sense. His club form says little about how he plays for Holland. I don't understand how you have not noticed that. We have been over this before. RVP is pretty useless for Holland with Sneijder/VDV behind him. We need to change that. I don't choose for two inferior solutions. I go for the golden solution.

What? First, you are copy pasting my terminology. Go find your own. Second, I am not starting any campaign. I am reading the room unlike you and nobody is interested in the things you have to tell. Cherry picking incidents, putting salt on them and portrait it as a trend people should be concerned about? Seriously

About what? Support both?

You asked what else he had to do? As if he had achieved the hight of his career, by scoring a hattrick against Plzen. You couldn't even spell the name correct of that club. RVP scored a hattrick against Chelsea. I have seen people mentioning it, but without an NT connotation IIRC and I was still very critical (read back). However, whenever Huntelaar does something like that against a team you can't even spell the name from, it is directly linked with it being the ultimate prove that he and not RVP must be striker for Dutch NT.

I hope so, it was my own joke. Have to hear your first joke yet on this forum.

Great. Another straw man fallacy lover and I have pointed out to you, that you have done it already multiple times.

Are you disagreeing with that?

Well that only means 1 thing MR S. You have heavily identified yourself with the player. It is good you communicate these things to me and to others. However it also means that you are receptible for severe bias. As we have to be cool collected managers on this forum, to have the NT interest at heart, that is a problem. I would also discourage you to watch any pundit show, as they make a living from throwing some qualifications to players to make a point about them.

It's funny you notice my language towards Huntelaar, but have no problem how I designate RVP in a Swiss-Netherlands match tread for example.

Or in this post:

England vs Netherlands

You do something different. I look at a player, have seen him at PSV losing competition against Kezman, at Heerenveen, Ajax, Madrid, some Milan, Schalke and have an idea about the player. The profile Huntelaar is clear to me. He is a fox in the box and very mediocre outside of that. There are people making money of making a caricature of peoples profile. Comedians do it and people on the market making a funny drawing of your face. I have let made several of myself when I was a kid. Loved them. They enlarge your imperfections and make you laugh. But that's not for you.

What you do, is blurring what is reality. You repeat ad nausem a word hypocrite, while leaving out facts like players missing penalty's. Try to cherry pick on actions now, instead have the more calm attitude to look at overall trends. This would be an overall trend:

KJH:

Totaal : 33 doelpunten

Bundesliga 23 wedstrijden 18 doelpunten
Clubs plek 1 t/m 5 : 0 doelpunten
Clubs plek 6 t/m 10 : 5 doelpunten (1 strafschop)
Clubs plek 11 t/m 14 : 6 doelpunten (3 strafschoppen)
Clubs plek 15 t/m 18 : 7 doelpunten (0 strafschoppen)

Europa League 9 wedstrijden 10 doelpunten
Doelpunten tegen HJK (4),AEK (2) Viktoria Pilsen (4) (clubs die onderaan zouden meedoen in de Bundesliga

DFB-Pokal 3 wedstrijden 5 doelpunten
Teningen (4) (amateurclub), Karlruher (1) (2. Bundeslgia)


I picked this up from another forum 2 weeks ago or so. I have only checked the above claim and the only problem I have with is that Schalke is at 4 so he of course won't score against his own team. However He indeed has not scored against Dortmund, Bayern, Gladbach and Leverkusen (the team that got tanked yesterday).

These are statistics of a flat track bully. If you want to make right taxations, single games don't offer much prove of anything. You need big samples of games and provide some context.

In defense of Huntelaar, I don't know if you've seen those games of Schalke but they usually get dominated all over the field and Hunter has to make do with scraps. Put him in team that will deliver balls to him in and around the opponents box and he's the best finisher in the world. He wouldn't fit into my dream team but in this messed up football world we'll just have to be happy with Hunter in Oranje.

That's why I provided the Livepool match vs Arsenal where RVP despite his team being dominated made 2 goals and bailed them out. I don't agree with this trend portraying of Mr. S where RVP is on a choking run or something.

Both strikers stand on an Island. Huntelaar deals IMO better with that than RVP. But I see it as a weak version of what the Dutch NT can be and more important, what the Dutch NT should be about. If you have a player like RVP then IMO you use him always over a far less dimensional player like Huntelaar.

The Dutch NT should go back again to the credo:

Come for the sexy, stay for the awesome


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9L94EO9PZw"]Robin van Persie 2010/2011 - Control, touch & passing - YouTube[/ame]

I agree entirely, but that's a pipe dream under tactical nitwit Bert van Marwijk.

I will respond to DRB later but how on earth does Willems start over Pieters?


Granted Eric is mediocre but Jetro is downright shitty. He will be in my list of One of the Worst Left Backs I have ever seen in my life. 0 Positonal awareness,the left side is life an open corridor for Valencia. Jetro should not be starting at PSV or anything other Eredivisie team. Maybe considering how the present standards of defending are in Eredivisie he will make the 11 for a team like Ado.

But this guy would not even make it in the 3rd Division of EPL. NO Chance. Even U-15 kids have more sense of positional awareness & defensive skills than him. Hell even if Robben or Elia played at LB they would be better. ********ing dissapointed. This guys really let PSV down.

Pieters is back from long term injury and was horrible on Sunday against Twente. Couldn't even defend properly when his team was up a man. We have the AZ/Udinese match on here in the states so I can't say what's up with PSV only that their defense is in a shambles at this point in the season.

Pieters was subbed in for Willems at 32-33 minutes odd. That gives you an idea how horrible he was. Pieters has been surprisingly solid with his mediocrity that is. Atleast compared to what Willems was.

PSV is being looked on as a joke. Toivonen has no business starting about Wijanldum & Strootman has dissapointed me massively with his immaturity & the way he gave a completely needless penalty.

Maybe Bert is right. Neither Claisie nor Strootman are ready or Fer for that matter since the best teams they get are Ajax,Twente & the level of defending in Eredivisie is horrible. That is what Mark Van Bommel would have never done. He would never made such a stupid foul,would have 10 tactical fouls & manipulated the ref. When will this kids grow a proper brain?