Review: Dutch NT - WC 2014 preparation thread

Discussion in 'The Netherlands' started by DRB300, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Reportedly Man Utd will release funds for an overhaul ... I can imagine that LVG would love the opportunity to build a squad to his liking ... maybe LVG will care more about youth development than Moyes too ... seems odd that Man Utd players are sending their sons to Man City's academy ... also shareholders have seen a lot of value evaporate this season ... guessing they want an experienced manager with a proven track record ... I wouldn't be surprised if LVG gets the call (Klopp, Simeone, Martinez, et al. seem less likely).

    PS Morocco wants Advocaat ... imho they have a fair chance to qualify in 2018 with him at the helm ... do you guys think he'll go?
     
  2. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    He has a contract to 2017 or 18 and I don't think the club will let him go unless ManU would pay them lots of €s. Plus he's in a great situation at Dortmund with tremendous support from the management and fans. They just qualified again for CL football and if they can find a capable replacement for Lewandowski they will be good again next year. They had a lot of injuries this season.
     
  3. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    club is owned by the Glazer family who are American and they financed the club using lots of debt. There really is no positive value at this point in time and all the cash flow is used to service the debt.
     
  4. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Around the time of Mata's transfer and Rooney's contract extension there were many articles published that either relayed the Glazer's concern, the share price drop, the call for reinforcements, fear of losing out on European competitions, etc. ... here's one of them:

    http://www.theguardian.com/football...united-share-price-david-moyes-premier-league

    Unsure if the Glazer family would profit if they decided to sell now ... isn't it in their best interest too that Man Utd is successful? ... from the articles that I've seen this season, I get the feeling that they want to spend big this summer.
     
  5. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Klöpp is a very popular figure with United fans. So extremely popular that I would like to play the advocate of the devil and ask some of his fans how much silverware he has won in Europe. I know what he did in Germany, but not even an EL Cup? Van Gaal won that in his first season at Ajax. Getting in a CL final is something van Gaal has done several times. It's about winning the final.

    Also he has yet to coach outside of Germany. When van Gaal went from Ajax to Barca he suddenly had to deal with much more than what he was used to, also as he he knew Ajax from inside out. The socio's, the Spanish media. The power structures of a club can really frustrate a coach. It's not only about his coaching quality's anymore, also being political smart plays a role. Now I do think many people are better at this than van Gaal, he yet has to prove that he can come in at a big foreign institution and role the things out the way he wants. Both at Barca and Bayern van Gaal won the double in his first season.

    To be honest I don't really care. I saw a post from a PSV fan a while ago that I forgot to save and I was not able to Google it again. Such a pity. This poster went from one decision of Advocaat's spell at his PSV to another. Every single one of his decisions pointed towards one direction and one direction only: He is a coward. This is completely in line with how I experienced him as NT coach. The only time I wanted Netherlands to lose games was during Advocaat's reign. Just so that he would get fired and we could move on, rather than sticking with the old guard and the toxic atmosphere they created. As I type this, my blood is boiling again.

    The further this guy is away from the Netherlands, the better. As he is such a fan of experience I have few worries that he will go after Dutch Moroccan talents for his squad. Moroccan FA does that whether Advocaat is first team coach or not by the way, so probably not even a consideration to have. I believe Pim Verbeek also did some work in this regard.
     
    Brilliant Dutch repped this.
  6. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Yes, but the number of shares that are publicly traded are a fraction of those held by the Glazer family. According to their filing, the family controls over 95% of the outstanding stock!!!! I should have been more clear in my statement. I haven't looked at their financials in some time but the amount of debt that they owe is staggering. A couple of years ago they had to pay €85M in interest payment on the outstanding loans!!!

    Here are some figures for 2013 from the US corporate filings (they are listed on the New York Stock Exchange)

    Total Debt: $432M
    Net Income from Ordinary Operations: -$18M
    Other Income (advanced payments for licensing deals etc.): $146

    This latter figure represents some one time payments which means this goes down markedly in out years and it's the only reason why ManU shows a profit for 2013!

    When you look at the balance sheet, you very quickly decide that this is not a company to invest in. Better off buy shares in Philips, Univlever, or Royal Dutch Shell if you want to safeguard your investment.
     
  7. Brilliant Dutch

    Brilliant Dutch Member+

    Ajax
    Netherlands
    Oct 14, 2013
    Amsterdam, Holland
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I will forever remember Advocaat for that Robben sub he made at Euro 2004 :confused:
     
    DRB300 repped this.
  8. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Shareholders was an unlucky choice of phrasing it ... the owners however make less noise than the NYSE (showing cynical approval of Moyes' dismissal). Still I'm more interested in the boardroom's next decision ... what I wanted to get across was that I like LVG's odds of becoming the new manager ... who knows ... they might already be engaged in advanced negotiations ... time will tell if LVG is up for the job (the healing one?) ... in any case LVG made it clear that he would focus solely on Oranje but wouldn't stay on after Brazil.
     
  9. cr7torossi

    cr7torossi Member+

    May 10, 2007
    Completely incorrect.

    The club generates 100M+ in EBITDA after servicing the Glazers' debts.
     
  10. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Read the balance sheet carefully and you will see that they booked $146M in "other income" in 2013 which was markedly above the number in previous years. As I noted much of this is "probably" one time payments coming in for various naming rights. I believe that €70M of that is for the upcoming shirt sponsorship with General Motors (I hope they don't have a switch on the shirt) and there won't be as significant revenue coming in during the sponsorship years. This is fine for the 2013 accounting but not so good going forward. Maybe they will sell individual blades of grass sponsorships at Old Trafford to bring in more money. They will continue to have enough cash flow to service the debt incurred by the Glazers but as with most sport franchises, a lot of the value is illusory.

    Also worth noting is that they slipped to fourth in the Deloitte Football Money League behind Madrid, Barcelona and Bayern. As a reference point, Ajax stand 27th in the Deloitte rankings.

    The bottom line still stands, you won't get rich owning ManU stock!
     
  11. Ebitda is an invention by the managers clique to hide the real numbers from shareholders. These numbers can be tweaked to their liking, especially there Bonus liking.
     
  12. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Spoken like a true investor!!! Never, never, never, take managements explanation for anything; do your own due diligence by going over all the financials!!!;)
     
  13. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
  14. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    2 May: press release - preliminary squad
    7 - 17 May: Hoenderloo (14 trainingen)
    17 May: Nederland-Ecuador (Amsterdam)
    20 - 27 May: training camp Lagos, Portugal (12 trainingen)
    28 - 31 May: training camp Rotterdam
    31 May: Nederland-Ghana (Rotterdam)
    1 - 4 June: training camp Santpoort (4 trainingen @ AZ)
    2 June: deadline final squad
    4 June: Nederland-Wales (Amsterdam)

    Source: http://nos.nl/artikel/634606-oranje-via-algarve-naar-rio.html
     
  15. cr7torossi

    cr7torossi Member+

    May 10, 2007
    Again incorrect.

    80M annually is just the Chevy shirt deal so that money will keep coming every year for the next 7 years, no accounting trick to make the 2013 numbers look better.

    As for the Deloitte rankings, they are a fallacy since they only look at revenues. Those revenues from 2013 incidentally do not include the Chevy deal that you pointed out before nor do they include the new PL tv deal nor do they include the new Nike deal whenever it is signed (rumoured to go up by 40M or so).

    What Deloitte includes as revenues are every buck you earn on merchandise if you sell them in house like Bayern does; which leads to more revenues but incidentally higher costs as well. United on the other hand outsource all of it to Nike for a fixed amount. There is a reason why Forbes and the market have a much higher valuation for United.

    I do agree with your bottom line but that is purely since the United shares are pretty worthless with the A/B separation and the Glazers keeping all the voting rights.

    Still, they were enticing enough for Soros to invest in them.

    United is a very tight shop with very few managers making big money. Gill and to a lower extend Woodward were the only ones.
     
  16. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I hope the van Gaal appointment or cancellation comes as soon as possible. It takes away the focus from the campaign. Transfer opportunity's mess with players mind and the same goes for coaches to some extend. Getting past the group stage is already hard with everybody being focused 100%. Netherlands looks like a fool if it's trashed in the group stage again, like in 2012. This must be a tourney where we react to the last one and overperform rather than underperform. That does not mean that I demand getting past the group stage with this mediocre team, but I want to see 110% effort in every game. No implosion after 15 minutes like in all 3 games in Poland/Ukraine.
     
  17. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    I was disappointed that Ake and van Ginkel got 0 minutes against Liverpool yesterday. The fact that Kalas got minutes as left center back, while Ake can play there perfectly as well, tells us something about his position there. After this season he has the home grown label and can he go look out for a club that will give him real playing time. Vitesse comes to mind. As for van Ginkel, I heard that Wolfsburg wanted to pay bug money for him before he joined Chelsea. Maybe he can be loaned out a year.

    Imagine if these players were fit and had a full season in their legs:

    • van Ginkel
    • Strootman
    • Afellay.

    Would be much more comfortable going to Brazil. Lens being in a war zone is not helping either.
     
  18. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    However a positive thing is the emergence of Kongolo. Should van Gaal stick to his qualification team or introduce this young fellow?

    I would also like to hear a Feyenoord fan touch on this. IMO Kongolo is the best defender now in Rotterdam. He is faster than BMI. A better footballer than BMI. Probably even a better defender than BMI. I wonder if Koeman had introduced him earlier, if Feyenoord would have been closer to getting champ?

    Anyway he carries the same characteristic as BMI in being versatile as well. He can play left back and center back. So that argument is also out of the window in choosing for BMI. I think Koeman at this moment rates Kongolo as better than BMI.
     
  19. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Not sure I think this is a big deal since he already announced he won't be coaching the NT past this tournament. His agent will likely be handling any discussions with ManU (if that's the team who want him) and transfers and other stuff are not essential until after the WC is finished.
     
  20. Blondo

    Blondo Member+

    Sep 21, 2013
    Didn't Van Gaal 'warn' the KNVB and Oranje fans ahead of time that this would happen? At least during the previous rumours (possible move to Spurs), he said that he would focus solely on Oranje ... at Man Utd he'll have a bigger task than an oversized Spurs squad would present (transfer allowance will probably be lower than Man Utd this summer) ... still I think he'll stick to his principles.

    PS good news ... Vitesse dropped points in each of their last 6 matches and PSV probably will avoid the play-offs.
     
  21. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Not surprising at all since Mourinho wanted to win the match badly and had to play negative football to do so. van Ginkel is just back from an injury and Lampard and Mikel had to play as they are suspended from the CL return match. Ake was always below Kalas and was just on the bench in case of an injury.
     
  22. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Pretty amazing given lots of folks here were touting Chelsea B squad to challenge for the championship. What will happen when all the loanees return to Chelsea next season?
     
  23. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    But what does that mean if he gets appointed and then has to choose between multiple transfer targets and has to think how to make a flying start after entering pre season too late with United? Is there a power struggle waiting for him with Fergie and the class of '92 who preferred another coach? Does he has to invest time into club politics and does he have to over think appointments to counter this. Yes to Giggs as assistant, or no and if so, then who?

    Taking over the United job is a big responsibility and demands planning and forward thinking I reckon? I rather have him doing that towards Spain, Chili and Australia. That being said, if there is a coach who can manage both things, it is van Gaal, as he does not meddle. He knows what he wants and so can make clear and fast decisions.

    I guess I am just concerned and I want this solved ASAP so that the focus can go back to the Dutch NT.
     
  24. DRB300

    DRB300 Member+

    Sep 21, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    New ones will come in, or Vitesse must be ditched by Abramovich. Would be weird though. He just invested in a very expensive youth facility. Bad business to leave without getting something out of it. Vitesse is a club for non EU Chelsea transfers that can not play for Chelsea due to papers. It is also a club for players that are very young and either not good enough yet or are deemed not going to reach the level but might be in the future. If they do well at Vitesse but not good enough to give a (second) chance at Chelsea they can be sold for a nice prize.
     

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