Douglas. For Oranje?

Bruma plays Bundesliga and has to compete for a spot in his own team with players bought with a much higher budget. He is pretty slow, but so was Frank de Boer. When you can read a game well, you don't have to be that fast.

Has not been your point at all. Why don't you read back and see how you started out in this thread. You were starting about xenophobia, you did not take the discussion to a player quality discussion. So this is nonsense. You have to make a distinction between the principal discussion involving Douglas and naturalized players (Part I) and when that has been discussed, the player quality is the next one (Part II). Now we have arrived at Part II. Whole other discussion with totally different arguments.

..... and proven they don't make silly mistakes, right? That is the goal? Not getting into silly situations? Like getting red cards in crucial matches? Like having mind farts? Like being able to football yourselves out of nasty pressure moments, that are typical for high level football? What does that say about being dependable and experienced? Or would those be a result of his temperament, something you can't chance that much?

Who says I am not rating Douglas? I am pointing at his strengths and his weaknesses. It's a balanced picture I paint. I give points, but you don't address them. You say: He has his weaknesses and then carry on, not addressing. If being dependable is his strength, then there is an issue with him, but you just don't quote my point and address it.

LOL. This is kindergarten discussion method. Logical is always a point of view. This forum is to hold those views against each other. That takes a person to address the other person's points. That is not possible with you, because you refuse to quote and address.

Of course he will. I will even fill you in with another secret. He will even get playing time.

You are really milking those few CL and EL games Twente has played. Hasn't Brama also played those? What has that done for him?

Here I had wanted you to address my points. Has not happened.

Hmm, I think he is more experienced. High level with some games. To prove he can handle high level, he still has to make the next step.

A great. finishing this part off with a fallacy. You made the comparisment Gouweleeuw vs Douglas ridiculous. In quality that is not so ridiculous. They bring different quality's, but Gouweleeuw is having a great season so far. Also you fail to understand Douglas will not be there at Euro 2012. So we are talking in preparation of WC 2014. That will give him 2 more year to develop and maybe he can slowly be brought in the next year. Then we will see who will be chosen.

Would not be that weird and no I was pointing to something funny. Me bringing in other opinions than my own (important ones as they have worked with the person, contrary to you) being portrait as not having an own opinion and then 8 posts earlier doing the same thing with somebody while that person has never worked with him. That offers far less credential to the opinion, yet you jump to use it. That is in conflict with each other.

Well, never a good one, as Twente has never had the past 20 years or produced a world class defender. For that you have to look to other teams. If you want to be able to judge good defenders you must have good reference material to world class. You don't get that from watching Twente games. That's even arrogant and not knowing what the status of your team is.

You can't make that call, even if you were drinking a cup of tea with the team every day. You just can't extract that from a team. To many variables.

World class is top 5 in his position. Wasn't Ruiz to good for Fulham too? Douglas is not called up for Brazil, not called up for Netherlands (yet), not playing at a world class team or a world class competition and the CL games we are not going to milk any more. Douglas has proved nothing to be called world class. What are you on?

Address those then, don't put them under the carpet. This is the thread to profile the guy.

You don't have seen Heitinga recently owning Saha, Adebayor and Defoe. Also Mathijsen is a guy that is horribly underrated. Now he is maybe not that fantastic anymore, but this guy has been pretty good for us actually. Over the moon to have had him. Douglas has everything to prove to be anything as good as he has been.

Straw man fallacy deluxe. I think he is an option, you think he is obviously the best from the new guys. We still have to see that, as he is untested at a better team and his weakness do not sit well if it comes to the Dutch NT. Overall we are a ball possession team, not a sit and wait team outplayed by Heracles. If teams start to bunker, a cutting pass from Gouweleeuw through defense could be of more value than ramming the ball out of the stance for the 3 or 4 times they get on our half. Gouweleeuw can do that too.

 

For what it's worth, I'm in the 'Douglas In Oranje' camp. Peace.

 

If Douglas goes away this summer I will loose all respect for him. He can be a horrible piece of shit for me who turned back on his word. He can leave in Winter. Fact is Mathijsen is on his last legs, I want Douglas to be available for Oranje wether or not he is selected. On the long term I want bruma & Gouweleeuw but for the sort term Douglas will be a good option.

Lets not be hypocritic about this. Was not Douglas the guy who with his daughter was emotional while getting the Dutch passport?? If he really wants to represent Oranje he can stay for 6 months more. If not I will consider him to be a douchebag who gave away the chance of representing oranje when Bert wanted him & probably Oranje needed him.

 

He also saw Janssen as the ideal midfielder...

Bruma and Gouweleeuw may be inexperienced, but they don't need to be experienced yet. they need to be experienced two years from now at the world cup, 'cause lets be honest, it's going to be Heitinga (rightly so) and Mathijsen in central defense for us this summer. There's simply no time to phase in anyone else.

I have no problem with Douglas playing for Oranje. I think it's ridiculous that he'd have to make the choice to stall his development in order to be able to play for oranje. I know many people are of the opinion that he just wants to play for the Dutch NT for his own benefit, but imagine for just a second that he really does want to play for us. Now imagine just how hard of a choice that is. He's not going to develop more by staying here, but at the same time, choosing to progress means not being able to play for Oranje. That's a tough call, especially since going abroad would likely make him a better defender for Oranje

 

I think the xenophobic crap he's had to endure is disgusting.

That being said his "Sporting C.P. is a team that has had it's best years in the past" statement when we were linked with him last summer is a real asshole remark to make.

 

Please give an example of this "xenophobic crap". Parroting "neeskens" will make you say a lot of nonsense.

 

DRB300 are you hiding your racist view of the world behind a shroud of misplaced and 200 year late sense of guilt?
I really don't get why you are arguing.. you both don't want Douglas in the NT. (Same here btw). I understand your football arguments.. but why the white-moral-superiority-paternalistic-holier-than-thou colonialism hangup?

How is giving youth a chance to show and grow in what they excel at, on a popular platform that offers a small family financial stability and possibly independence in just a few years, wrong? It's not like they stole him, ball and chain.

Yes, there are many negatives to "stealing" our youths to ManU and City. (Or to Ajax, or any other club shopping in the slums of any country)
But that reality is more a sign of modern day blind individualism than of colonialism. There is a lot to be gained by these youngsters and their families in the short term. And no-one is forcing them to play for any NT. They choose the one they feel offers the most potential.
As for Douglas... Not good enough for the Brazilians... and not good enough for the Dutch. As you, I would much rather see a player that handles the ball quickly and keeps his cool. In that respect Douglas fits right in! Most of our other defenders aren't good enough either.

 

You don't even know what a racists view is. If you knew, you don't know how it applies on the different opinions.

Well if you formulate it that strong, then why not start off with an open question? Yet you didn't. Doesn't come off as honest.

Yeah let's apply that approach and just dismiss how people come to a certain conclusions. In this discussion we can see how people operate and how future situations will be dealt with. Do they argue from values as equality or honesty and originality? Yet this debate about values can't seem to lift off.

Why don't you expand that view a little further instead of taking out the labeller with the big words?

Here is another view from a Dutch pundit about today's excesses in football land: AD

Others call it kidnapping, I call things my way. Let's go a bit deeper.

The equality fraction here can not understand and respect people that operate differently and that's why they bring out the big words, like you do. I will repeat what I have said before:

In my opinion all humans are equal. Dutch, Philippine's, Germans, Americans, South Africans, Iranian’s, everybody. All human beings are equal, but all human doings are not equal. What person A does can be superior than what person B does. What group C does, can be superior than what group D does. A competition setup is in my opinion an artificial way to discover what the superior way is, in this case in the game we call football. Winning and losing (and the way they they do!) in this way, is a feedback system to tell each and every competitor if what he is doing now, is good or bad. This way he can work on his personal or country’s growth and development. In the FIFA country vs country setup, the thing that is measured and is fed back to IMO .... is the nurturing system of the country. So it’s about, what country has deployed and enrolled the best nurturing system over their country. Not which country has the best team with players educated in other nurturing systems. It's not a naturalization game. That corrupts the idea for me. In the end it is in my opinion about nurturing system vs nurturing system, the originality and style that comes with it and the ability to win with that originality and style. Thereby a real Dutch football product, must have been developed by the Dutch nurturing system before it can typify the Dutch way and then play for the Dutch National Team. Accordingly, the same applies to the rest of the world who likes to test their nurturing system and the players it has produced against ours. Joy can be found as much in the process of discovering and developing you’re own style and it’s supporting nurturing system, as in winning with it. The process is as important as the end result.

Where the problem lies is when people look for disqualification and not full acceptance when they are not allowed to enter this game via the Orange entry, after they became member of society (naturalization), while the (majority of the) skill development has taken place in the other society. They start to throw in the big words, while it is just dishonesty from their part IMO. They are the ones that have to answer for themselves what this FIFA nation vs nation setup is about? FIFA already has overarching rules that are not in line with the rules of the country. Sport Federations can make their own rules. FIBA (Basketball) goes much further than FIFA so we see that even on highest level between sport federations things are completely differently seen as what would be honest.

How do I see it in other words for the Dutch NT? What makes me tick as a fan?:

This KNVB tree we have in Holland with 1,2 million members is fed from the bottom up trough it roots, has a strain and in the end has beautiful leaves. The most beautiful, play in Orange. Naturalization is taking the leaves from another tree if it happens later in a players career´s life, say 23. Players must have gone trough the roots phase and the strain phase otherwise they are not leaves from the tree. It's about the country who's best in nurturing the tree and what kind of leaves it produces. The color of the leaves (the style of players it produces and the general style of country as a result) give color to the sport and the world. Elevating and celebrating life a little bit with high athletic performance that people deem original. But it is also a fulfillment of self expression. The Dutch people IMO can only identify with the leaves if they know that Orange players have gone trough the roots phase and the strain phase. The tree has been worked on for more than 100 years by generation after generation. If you are a naturalized person, you can not come into Orange when you are already in the leave phase (you will represent the other tree), but if you bring your kid to the Orange root phase, he can.

I operate from honesty and originality, because I start with the following question:

What is the FIFA country vs country setup about? That is the starting point for me. If you don't identify with players by the knowledge of the nurturing process they have received throughout their youth from Dutch football, then what is the identifying element for you? I am curious. What gives you the justification to feel pride and joy? On the flip side, how does that player typify the Dutch nurturing system if he has never been part of it?

I think he will make the first team, but I see him as a temporary solution, until a footballing CB comes in that has enough defensive gravitas. After all even Boularouz gets playing time in Dutch NT, who can't give one proper cross a game. Gouweleeuw could overtake Douglas before WC 2014 if he continues to develop.