I agree that they are stepping in a little too much. For instance, perhaps McDonald's tackle was not a "clear and unequivocal red card" or an "extraordinary or exceptional circumstances". However, it is clearly not the kind of tackle we want in the league. Nor do we want elbows like Benitez repeatedly threw at Cruz. This is the first couple of weeks of the system, hopefully it will improve. If it doesn't I still think a little bit of over-reaction is better than a lack of reaction.
Of course I also didn't say that 'refs suck' (I said they're mediocre when compared to the players, for perfectly understandable reasons--included in those reasons I did say that the pay and the social respect level sucked) a nuance you missed because your reading of my post was as lazy as your reply to it. If I may, hypocrisy is fun.
i got the 'nuance.' which is why i used quotation marks in the (familiar) use of paraphrasing. but more importantly, i disagree with your statement of referees being 'mediocre when compared to the players.' not only that it's an awkward comparison, but i've seen lots of excellent referees. i think you've sold the entire referee class short in one fell swoop. as for the 'social respect level,' i'm not sure what it means or what it's got to do with the dc (we'll see about their social respect). as a former player i can testify to the mutual respect i and other players displayed with referees. you certainly may, but in this case i do miss your nuance.... awkward reasoning isn't substantive. it's more what political spin-meisters do. but formal objections notwithstanding, i'm more interested in the present issue of the dc intervening so early and so often, which i disapprove.
No one is arguing that slide tackles or other tackles should be removed from the game. And no one is suggesting that these fines / suspensions are going to completely end the problem of rash challenges. However, if this system does cause players to actually learn proper tackling techniques and make them second guess themselves before launching their studs into an opponent's ankle, therefore reducing the number of bad challenges, then I would see that as having a positive impact on the system. Funny, I have the opposite fear - that referees will give more yellows instead of red because they know the DC will step in and administer post-game punishments. There isn't any, but then again, we've had games like that for decades now. The only precedent for replaying a match is if a referee incorrectly applies the rules, such as the WCQ between Bahrain and Uzbekistan, where the referee gave an indirect kick after an opponent entered the penalty box too early on a PK instead of repeating the PK. Otherwise, if you make the argument that games should be replayed because the referees made an error that could potentially make a huge impact on the game, then we'd never finish a season. Player just onside, but it's called offside? Replay! Player just offside, called onside and scores? Replay! If you want to get justice during the game for things like this, or for the Henry handball against Ireland, or for the QPR - Bolton "non-goal", then we should be looking at other possible solutions like video replay during the game, or increasing the number of officials - though those ideas also have drawbacks. I'm sure all teams are looking at videos to try to get their opponents punished. If I'm in the DC organization, I'd actually be looking at the Seattle - San Jose game and questioning why the DC didn't suspend Zach Scott for his yellow card that could have easily been red, or Osvaldo Alonso for his rough tackle. If I'm the ref, I worry about that all the freaking time, because I get assessed on every game that I do. If I'm McDonald, I'm thinking that maybe I shouldn't make such stupid tackles. Also, according to the article posted earlier, they do have someone reviewing every minute of every game, not just the cards. This is not a "random witch hunt".
exactly. so the dc has run a bit ahead of its own self-imposed guidelines. 'what we want in the league' isn't the committe's mission.
What they want in the league then? I was using the global we, not we as fans. Perhaps it has run a little bit ahead of its written guidelines, but that doesn't mean it will continue to do so, or even that continuing to do so is worse than the alternative of doing nothing. It seems like they are trying a lot of different methods to make the game cleaner and keep its attacking players from being injured. The DC is just one method.
Ahahahahahahahahaha. This is such a great joke post. Mutual respect between players and referees? That's a good one. I'll have to remember that for the future when I see players surround the referee, yelling at him, cursing at him, pleading for cards, etc. Or when I see news reports of players assaulting referees. Such wonderful mutual respect.
I often see this complaint. What I don't see is any proof that the same fans are arguing both sides of the debate, rather than two different groups who are vocal about seeing things change to their liking. Isn't that more likely?
right. and next time i see a highlight of a player missing an easy scoring chance i'll remember people who say that players are talented. (i don't recall news reports of mls referees being assaulted, btw. although i do agree that the language on mls fields ought to be cleaned up, and i'm not talking about the ballboy incident.)
Fair enough. I will say, though, that this is my point about the social respect level of the profession (it wasn't just about the players). Even if they aren't the same people, we shouldn't go around pretending the fans, as a whole, treat refs with any respect. We know that as a general rule they don't get a lot, and we know that if refs crack down, it will generate a vehement response. It seems weird all the sudden that we're worried about them being second-guessed, when they're second-guessed constantly, every working day of their lives.
As far as I know, no MLS referees have been assaulted. The behavior of MLS players, however, is intimidating and shows zero respect for the referee. And the issues at hand involve all of US Soccer, not just MLS, and referees have been assaulted at other levels of US Soccer. Referees don't just come into MLS with zero experience. Referees that have been assaulted, threatened, or repeatedly abused verbally at lower levels aren't likely to stick around. There are probably some potentially excellent referees out there, who simply don't want to put up with all the bullshit that comes with refereeing right now. As I said in an earlier post, if you want to see better referees, you're going to have to do a lot more than just focus on referee training. Also, MLS referees have been pushed / manhandled by players in the past, so though there hasn't been anything that rises to the level of criminal assault, there has been contact that should be punished with red cards.
I've run across situations like this in life. In MY experience, it's different people complaining. The problem, generally is that the people who got their way don't verbally support the change so that it seems like it's just a case of an impossible-to-please audience.
They are not being second guessed by this committee, they are being overruled and undermined. There is no logic to it either. Basically they are saying that the subjective opinion of the referee appointed to officiate the game is less valuable than the subjective opinion of 5 men in a room. Why don't MLS just hand the disciplinary procedure to BS, we can do a poll and decide who get punished - thousands of subjective opinions have to be better than five, right? I wonder how Beckham or Keane or Henry will react when some faceless nobody decides to retroactively take a chunk of their wages because in their opinion that is what they deserve. And if and when it blows up in MLS HQ's face, good luck with attracting top pros from other leagues who hear about it. Then again it is ideal for those players at the end of their careers who want to play in a retirement league that wishes to banish tackling. Yes I am being deliberately OTT but there is also some truth in that. If by some miracle this policy turns MLS into some kind of soccer Utopia and players suddenly become more skilful because... well let's not worry about the logic - MLS doesn't, and we all rejoice and laugh at Mucky for not seeing the policies virtue (and referring to himself in the 3rd person) then what happens when the players play in other competitions where the light has not yet been seen? Will all the MLS players in the national team stand watching as an opponent zips by them - being that he has gone through this behavioural change that MLS seek. Will they have a nervous breakdown when an opponent tackles them and god forbid makes contact with them? Oh man.
Seems like a good assumption to me. It will be wrong every so often, but right much more often than not. Remember, all 5 have to agree that a red card was deserved. Perhaps it won't turn out that way in practice, but to say its obviously worse because its 5 subjective people instead of 1 would seem to be faulty logic.
Beckham and Henry have already been fined for actions they've taken on the field. If they have a problem with it, they certainly haven't shown it. And honestly, the rest of your post is so ridiculous it's not really worth responding to. What you're proposing will never happen. Punishing people for making bad tackles does not equal wanting to end all tackling ever. Also, considering the US's performances in terms of getting red cards in global competitions over the last 5 or 6 years or so, these changes will probably help more than hinder.
If this rule keeps stars (more likely to be victims of a harsh tackle than deliver one) from coming, good riddance. If they can't play a clean game or don't want to and they are interested in injuring players then I'd rather MLS not have them. Also, as you stated in your post already, its not "some faceless nobody", its a group of 5, and the decision has to be unanimous.
If that were what I wrote... The point is you are overruling one subjective opinion with another which totally undermines the referees role. How about all the red cars I have seen given that were poor decisions - are they going to reverse those? If not why not? I mean where does thing start and where does it end and what is it's purpose? The idea that MLS is some kind of thug league is nonsense - it is no rougher than the EPL or any other European league IMO and they seem to of not only survived but flourished with a brand of soccer that a lot of people find entertaining - a blend of physicality and skill. If the powers the be really believe that MLS has an element in its game that needs to be stamped out then this scatter gun approach isn't the way. They would be better served targeting only very serious cases of provable dangerous foul play and throwing the book at said player/s. Ban them from the league or some other extraordinary punishment if they are serious about taking these players out of the game. Seemingly randomly overturning refereeing decisions is just a dumb idea IMO.
No, with FIVE UNANIMOUS subjective opinions. People who have been able to see the play from better angles and replay it. I'll take five people in agreement over one. I get that both the one opinion and the other five are both subjective, but I think the 5 v 1 makes up for that. I'd argue that some referees would probably like the chance to make calls over again if they make mistakes. If they can get their egos in check, they can view this as something that helps them do their job and maintain fairness.
Re: Wednesday, April 04 , 2012 Bullshit. Players know what types of tackles are likely to get red cards. Straight legged studs up tackles for instance. They shouldn't be lunging in like that ever. Players don't just instinctively react. They react with a purpose. They don't just lash out randomly at the ball. Once they are committed to a tackle it is too late. The problem lies in their choice of tackles. A player is constantly reading the game. They are thinking about what tackle they are going to make and how to make it. They choose to make the types of tackles they do. It isn't out some basic instinct. They can choose to not make those tackles and make a different tackle, or not make one at all. This isn't about mistimed tackles. It is about the type of tackles they are choosing to begin with frequently.
Personally, I think that would be an improvement, but I don't know that it will happen. It starts with offenses that were deemed by 5 people to be red cardable offenses that were not given red cards during the game. It ends in exactly the same place. Period.
How is a fine overturning a decision? Isn't it an additional punishment, just like the fines the English FA gives out? I agree with some of your concerns, but the concern about players getting pissed about being fined you're off-base on.
but the idea seems to be that they occupy such a low social level, that you really can't undermine them any more. you know, they're used to it already! 'how many mls guys does it take to change a light bulb?' 'six. the referee to hold the bulb and the dc to turn the ladder.'