Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? Perfectly said. The idea that referees should be fined or suspended for missing calls is laughable. It's like saying strikers who miss penalty kicks should be automatically suspended, or goalkeepers who get beat at the near post should forfeit their game check. Referees are human. They make mistakes. Not to mention -- if we start suspending referees, then where are all the brilliant, capable, underutilized officials to replace them going to be coming from?
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? Kudos to MLS and the DC for finally taking action. I'd like to know how much some of those fines were, and would've liked to have seen this starting Week 1, but this is big progress.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? I completely disagree. The committee should not overturn calls refs made (or failed to make) during games. If they're upgrading yellow cards to red cards post-game, what's to stop them from awarding or nullifying goals? As I said elsewhere, this sets the wrong precedent.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? Well one changes the outcome of the game and one doesn't? I agree with your general point, but I just think that was a bad example. If the DC is doing this I'd also like to see them go the other way and rescind cards or decrease them from red to yellow when appropriate. I will give the DC credit though, they are finally living up to the standards they announced for themselves about a year ago. That's at least a step towards consistency.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? I agree that they should take steps towards consistency, by ensuring that referees make consistent calls during games. Post-game hindsight solves nothing, and only results in more ambiguity in referees' decisions. Referees are going to second guess every call if they're thinking the committee will overrule them after the final whistle.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? So what is the formula they use to decide who to discipline? I understand Cruz and McDonald, but why not everybody else?
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? Ah, guess that makes sense, thanks for pointing that out. Alonso was extremely lucky to stay in that game. In the first half, about 20 minutes after he had already been yellowcarded, he kneed Baca in the face when Baca was on the ground after getting fouled by someone else. It was kind of similar to the Henry play last year, not quite as obvious, but it certainly looked intentional. Then, in the second half, he tackled Baca as you described, and no yellow card.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? With all due respect, every step MLS has taken pre-game to make refs more consistent over the last 16 years has barely worked, if at all. If this is what it takes to get rid of fouling that endangers opponents' safety, I'm all for it. I also strongly disagree with your ambiguity point - for years, what is and isn't a dangerous foul has had basically no objective rule or precedent set down by USSF/MLS (or hasn't been enforced even remotely consistently, your choice). Now, we have a baseline (a somewhat murky baseline, but again, this is progress). And if a ref is supposedly going to "second-guess" himself out of making calls when a line has been drawn by the league, what does that say about his own competence? That he's either too scared to follow the precedent or incapable of following precedent, and in either case shouldn't be reffing anyway.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? What you think of as progress I think of as I gigantic step backwards. Clearly, we're not going to change each others' minds.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? That was Sivebaek's dirty tackle injuring Corralles of San Jose. Since it was a Sounder who was injuring another player no discipline is warranted of course. Seriously. This was a dirty dirty dirty tackle. Sivebaek had no play on the ball possible.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? I must respectfully disagree with this sentiment. This is proposing to manage people through fear. That doesn't work. You will not improve the quality of referees this way.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? I'm going to stay out of the discussion about what fouls were left out because I haven't seen all of them, but I think this announcement is a positive step forward as a whole. It was really depressing last season when Zakuani, Ferreira, and Morales all seemed to go down in a matter of weeks. These guys represent the exciting type of player that is going to make MLS a better league gradually over time, and bad tackles in the heat of the moment rendered them all out for the season. Hurts these guys' careers/personal lives, makes MLS the boring bunker ball soccer that makes it easier for Europe to laugh at us, and hurts the progress of the league as a whole. I think these interests far outweigh whatever concerns Jeremy had upthread about refs second guessing calls, legitimate though they may be. There was a Manchester derby recently where Vincent Kompany was sent off for a terrible tackle (and got a 4 match ban) even though he won the ball, and Nani, whom he tackled, didn't even try to dive to draw attention to it. Decisions like this are obviously an imperfect line-drawing process, but it's all about sending a message to not make poor decisions that put your fellow players at risk. The league is acting well within its authority to protect its product, and IMO this is long overdue.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? There's a perfect counterpoint to your post just a few before yours. No one is going to get every call right without benefit of a replay. The disciplinary committee hopefully will help players and referees understand the expectations better. I'm glad MLS is trying something different. As you've pointed out in other threads, the big worry is favorable treatment for its stars or specific teams. Hopefully we won't see too much of that and we will start to see a change in tactics or fouls. I'd be interested to see if the data show more cards or fewer this year now that this is going on.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? I wonder if it would be better to let the game referree decide post-game discipline after reviewing available video? I find this disciplinary committee thing very unsettling. Who is it? How are they held accountable? It just seems like a secret star chamber capriciously and arbitrarily handing out "justice." This DC has no responsibility for managing a game, managing the players, or even being perceived as doing a good job. Who grades this DC the way referrees are graded? It would also address the problem of unintended consequences whereby knowing the DC will be reviewing the game may skew referree decisions.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? I was told that Jesse Marsch was on the committee last year.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? I'm not sure how much the game referee would second-guess himself. Perhaps in very clear situations he might. If they were able to do it well, it would be a very good system. For some pretty important reasons, I'm not confident they would be able to self-criticize well, especially not if it were public.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? Whatever formula they used clearly does not apply to David "Kovalenko Jr." Beckham.
Re: Wednesday, April 04 , 2012 Overzealous MLS Disciplinary Committee Suspends Brandon McDonald, Fines Danny Cruz I agree with the premise of this article - indeed I have been saying much the same thing here for a couple of seasons and warning how retroactive bans and punishment, other than in a few rare cases where the referee missed a very serious incident, opens up a whole can of worms. Unfortunately it is fuelled by the well meaning but somewhat naive belief of many MLS fans that a less physical game, with more fouls called, more yellow and red cards, more bans and retroactive suspensions, will result in a better product.
Re: Wednesday, April 04 , 2012 it's another way to try to make up for terrible officiating as long as this discipline committee is consistent, I can live with it, but so far, they seem pretty random in what incidents they punish
Re: Wednesday, April 04 , 2012 Watching the match and subsequent replays, I thought McDonald's tackle should have been straight red.
Re: Wednesday, April 04 , 2012 I don't think many people are debating the severity of McDonald's challenge.
MLS VP on Osvaldo Alonso’s tackle, and on retroactive suspensions http://prosoccertalk.nbcsports.com/...lonsos-tackle-and-on-retroactive-suspensions/
Re: Wednesday, April 04 , 2012 I saw the game but can't remember the incident but it is not about the right and wrong of individual refereeing decisions. The problem is that ,as the article points out, that the decision was made by the official who saw the incident on the day and who can take into account the dynamic of the game at that time and a panel retroactively stating that decision was wrong undermines the referees. It also means that every second of every game needs to be reviewed in the same way which is just ridiculous. Even then there will be retroactive decisions made that players, clubs and referees disagree with - the whole thing is set up to cause maximum controversy for very little gain. Now each time a club has one of its players suspended in this manner they are going to immediately look for other incidents involving other clubs where they feel the same punishment was not forthcoming - that will lead to ill feeling between franchises and players. Finally how about the players themselves? Now each time a player does his job and tries to win the ball back he will have to consider whether it is worth his while making a 50/50 challenge with the very real risk of personal financial penalty via way of a fine imposed retroactively by some faceless panel that decided they didn't like it. That has to be bad for the teams, bad for the game and bad for MLS. This sort of thing has been considered many times by other leagues around the world and always they have concluded it will do more harm than any theoretical good and dropped the idea for something more manageable. MLS powers that be though have somehow decided they know better - we will see. Edit. I'm not against reviews completely but they should be used sparingly for high profile incidents that the referee either missed or self evidently got wrong.
Re: So, where's the Disciplinary Committee? Maybe, but I'm tired of hearing "make the refs better" as a 'solution.' There's a difference between a desired end state and a solution; the latter involves some sort of plan for how you get there. People piss and moan about, say, our youth development too, but at least there they offer a thousand different ideas of things they think might make it better. With refereeing, you don't get that quality of thinking, and I think it's because at rock bottom, it's perfectly rational that refs are mediocre. Think about it: 1) The pay sucks 2) The social respect level of the profession really sucks 3) You're outnumbered on the field by people who have the incentive to undermine, badger, and/or fool you So, the pool of quality refs is tiny--surprise, surprise! On point one, there will hopefully come a day when the league* is rich enough that refs get a better wage than the average working stiff. (*-Another weird thing, they're actually paid by USSF. They're going to have to work out some financial acrobatics whereby that money really comes ultimately from the league.) So you can expect some improvement then, but by this time the players will be paid even better, the ratio between their pay and that of the refs should likely widen, and the players should be proportionately better at everything they do--including fooling the ref (or if you prefer, being more skilled at the art of fouling so it isn't as obvious, or doing it more quickly so it's harder to spot, etc). This is why refs are pretty mediocre when compared to the players basically everywhere on earth. And it's why expecting them to ever catch up to the players is naive. This way, you're finally giving the 'rules enforcement regime' a weapon the players will have a hard time trying to subvert--the benefit of time and virtually omniscient viewpoint. (At least compared to the view the ref has on the field in the heat of the moment.)