Dilly Duka

Discussion in 'Columbus Crew' started by ZipSix, Jan 11, 2013.

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  1. Kayak

    Kayak Member+

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    1. I fully understand you don't think we could have gotten anything, I just disagree with you. Once again I'm not saying we would have gotten much but something is better than nothing. The whole point of what I'm talking about about the something being better than nothing, is than when you get in situations like this you have something to package, the proverbial bag of balls. The problem for us in packaging things with Duka is we don't have many bags of balls.

    2. We didn't even have to do this, there was no bluff that really needed to be held to or called at this point. We didn't have to waive Cole, we could have kept his rights just like we did Balchan. I know you like that we're willing to be nice guys, but nice guys don't get full value for their assets. I don't see the point in giving assets away just because a player doesn't like our coach. I don't find giving pieces to other teams to be a great course of action in professional sports.

    3. I understand that you think Cole Grossman was a dime a dozen player. In my mind he was a useful practice player and a spot starter that didn't take up an international spot. Those types of players have use in MLS, they aren't worthless nor are they dime a dozen. Put another way we're at 22 right now, after the draft, are you really that confident that the thirtieth man on our roster is going to be better than Cole Grossman? I'm not.
    POdinCowtown and ZipSix repped this.


  2. CrewV Man

    CrewV Man Member+

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    How about Duka and the 9th pick to TFC for the first pick? Would any take that?
  3. kgilbert78

    kgilbert78 Member+

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    Briefly, your argument is an argument from silence. So's mine to be fair. We just don't know because we weren't listnening in on the conference call and we don't have a bug in Bliss' office. He may well have called each GM/TD's office in MLS. OTOH, he may be a total idiot. Lots of specualtion but little fact.

    Some of these discussions remind me of my Reds fan buddy who is always calling me about guys he things the Reds should get "easy". But when I ask him what's in it for the other team, he gets quieter. Same guy always calls me about this great deal he found on E-bay--a day before the auction ends and then cannot understand how he got outbid. Sometimes these boards are like that--valueing players differently from how the actual folks in the league see it--sometimes too much (usual) but sometimes too little as well. But, Bliss has gotten stuff for other journeyman players--like Griffit--in the past. Perhaps Grossman had an option that the team did not want to exercise--not a surprise going into the second year of a contract. Dunno.

    But MLS is not the NYSE or Saks but more like a flea market in terms of the world soccer system. Sometimes, like LA, it's an upscale flea market. But there's alot of questionable goods running through the system. Some turns out to be a bargain. Some does not. And some you can't find buyers for but they'll pick it out of the trash at the end of the day. So I just don't get freaked out by one relatively unimportant player here or there.
  4. Kayak

    Kayak Member+

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    Again what our real difference is, is that you're more ok with us being nice guys. I don't really care if we're screwing Balchan over right now, I'm not in to giving him to another team for nothing. I don't care how much Grossman wanted out I would have told him you're free to go train with other teams but we're keeping your rights for now. We look like jerks? Oh well, that's how this league works.

    MLS players go play in crappy leagues in other countries all the time because they don't want to play for the team that holds their rights. The most recent one I can think of is that guy Houston and Montreal were fighting over in the Ching BS last year. He wasn't starting but Houston still thought he was valuable after this past season; he basically said "I'll go play somewhere else" did they say "ok have it your way go sign with anyone in the league" no they offered him the contract they were willing to extend and said see ya. That hasn't stopped guys from wanting to play for Houston and it wouldn't have stopped players from playing with us. I think Houston handled their situation properly under the rules of the league, we were nice I guess.


  5. kgilbert78

    kgilbert78 Member+

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    MLS is a weird league as things go. They are not like most other US leagues, who are in all 4 cases the top dog in the world (though the NHL may start finding out differently as the money in the KHL grows)--but they use a lot of US league rules for player movements. What other soccer league in the world has trades, waivers, rights, etc.? Most world soccer leagues never have had these, except the last--and that mostly went out with Bosman. Most players come and go in the world system without much in the way of compensation--excepting transfer fees--which MLS cannot charge internally as they are single entity. We also have guarenteed contracts and options which are not the standard in world soccer. There are also very few American players that get the chance to play outside the US--unless they have a dual passport. Certainly few journeymen (there are exceptions--Matt Taylor for one--I saw him play for Paderborn in 2011) get that chance.

    Now in the NFL guys get waived all the time. All the time. No compensation--not for journeymen. They just don't care. In MLB and the NHL, you do want compensation--because you have a minor league system to stock too. We don't--not yet anyway. And even there, AAA baseball guys get released all the time. No compensation. They don't bother to hold up a guy for a deal in most cases. They just cut him. The NBA I do not follow--but I think it's more like the NFL (and NBA players can and do go overseas). I just don't see--nice guy or not--where freaking out over no compensation for a Grossman type player is warranted. He just isn't all that. We're 7 or 8 players short of a full roster. There's still plenty of time to sign a couple of guys--and our transfer window hasn't even opened yet. The European window has not closed. Most players we might bring in will not commit or their teams will not commit (in the case of a transfer fee) until the European window closes--they want to see if they can get more from a European club. Any good agent would do this.

    Now, we'll pick up 5 players in the draft, barring trades. Panic in March, maybe--now? No.
  6. Kayak

    Kayak Member+

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    I don't know why you always try to compare MLS to everything besides MLS. I'm comparing what we did, what we do to our direct competition. Almost no one in this league gives up an asset for nothing unless they have no other choice.

    Who is freaking out?

    Let me ask you one question: Would you prefer to have one more arrow in our quiver to package with Duka or not. I would who wouldn't. It's just grease it helps these things move, how many jokes have been made about that Garey for a 2015 second round supplemental pick? Most likely that won't turn into anything of value for us but Houston had to give up something to get him, same thing with us and Montreal for Schoenfeld. At this point if you listen to what Bliss is saying we don't have enough grease to get what we want for Duka, that's no one's fault but our own.
  7. kgilbert78

    kgilbert78 Member+

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    If a second round supplemental draft pick is the difference between if we move Duka or not....

    And *lots* of teams let players go for nothing. In MLS. There were 42 players on the waiver list. NOT the re-entry list. The waiver list. Forty two. There's something literary about that.... ;) One was picked. If RSL finds a diamond in the rough, so be it. But we were far from the only team letting rights go.

    http://blog.oregonlive.com/timbers/2012/11/portland_timbers_waive_three_p.html
  8. cam5fc

    cam5fc Member+

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    A lot of teams let players go, but those players are worth nothing in the market. Grossman had value to one degree or another. It would have been wise to at least wait until December to make that cut IMO
  9. Kayak

    Kayak Member+

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    I'm not going to go through the entire list but I'm pretty sure we're the only team that used it like we used it. By that I mean we got rid of a useful domestic player that was still young.

    Just so we're clear I define that as:
    Useful: played more than five games for the team that cut him.
    Domestic: American citizen or Green Card holder.
    Young: Under 25
  10. Kayak

    Kayak Member+

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    Ok, so I did glance at the list, again I didn't go through every player so if you want to prove me wrong feel free. The only other player that jumped out at me as fitting my criteria is Blake Brettschneider; New England that's good company to be in.
  11. kgilbert78

    kgilbert78 Member+

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    Heck, New York got rid of a GA player, Corey Hertzog.... That's New York though. And yes, I'd give Hertzog a look in training camp--but I've also seen him play a bit.
  12. Kayak

    Kayak Member+

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    Dallas got rid of HG players too doesn't mean they met the usefulness standards anymore than Hertzog.

    There was a reason Cole Grossman was the only player taken.
  13. kgilbert78

    kgilbert78 Member+

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    Which doesn't make him *that* valuable. Hertzog did play in 5 matches with NY and he led Wilmington to their championship game as a loan player. He probably would have *still* been a GA player if traded. No one wanted him--but he (barely) meets your criterion. I think we're sufffering from Griffit Syndrome here. Grossman is probably not going to make or break the season for either team in 2013. All we have is the evidence. Yes, he was valuable enough to one team that they were willing to take him for free. He was on the waiver list. But OTOH, no one cared enough to make an offer to take him off that list (I may be wrong, but in most sports you can pull a player back from waivers if an offer comes on the table). I'm happy for him getting a second chance. Other than that? We'll see if he even makes the team. Maybe he'll turn out to be the next Ryne Sandberg. But I doubt it. More likely he'll be the next Griffit--or Tchani. You are also assuming Bliss did not shop him around. We have no evidence one way or the other.

    This is a fun debate, but we are starting to go around in circles now.
  14. Kayak

    Kayak Member+

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    This is because you seem to keep debating with someone else, I'm not sure who it is but it isn't me.

    Where have I said Cole was going to turn into something he likely won't?

    Where have I said we should have gotten something impressive for him, high draft picks/a lot of allocation cash?

    Where did I even say we should have resigned him?

    I don't know who you keep debating when you bring anything remotely close to this up but it isn't me.

    I've made two points and I've made them consistently:

    1. We gave up an asset for nothing when we didn't have to.
    2. It'd be nice to have more assets than we do now to package with Duka.

    If you want to respond to either of those points that'd be great but all of this... Other leagues do it this way... Grossman wasn't going to lead us to MLS Cup... type of things mean nothing to me because I haven't said anything like that.

    He could have gone and camped with anyone, we've brought guys in camp whose rights were held by other teams, if you like them enough you deal something. Just last offseason one of the LBs we trialed we put a discovery claim on him we told him thanks but no thanks. RSL invited him into camp I don't know if they didn't think he was good enough either or our asking price was too high. I don't really care either, it's not our job to let assets go just because we don't want them anymore. If they wanted Cole they should have had to pay for him, if they wanted Lance Laing we should have made them pay for them.
  15. eboe

    eboe Member+

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    What ended up happening for Josh Gardner? Did someone pick him up? I can't remember...
  16. BrickStreetBoy

    BrickStreetBoy Member

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    SKC traded for him
  17. kgilbert78

    kgilbert78 Member+

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    1. So did most of the rest of the league in the same draft. 41 other players were put on waivers with him. A bunch of other GMs and TDs gave away players for free. It remains to be proven if we could have gotten anything for him. That's your guess because someone wanted him. My guess is they wanted him (and we know that because they took him)--but cheap--like free. No real proof either way, except Langerway making a big deal about it. Coaches and TDs do that all the time about new signings. Sometimes they even mean it. You think he had value. Fine. But neither of us are GMs or TDs. One guy was willing to pick him up for free. I pick up free samples all the time in the supermarket. Doesn't mean I end up buying the product.

    2. Sure it would be nice to have more assets to package with Duka. But I don't think a single supplemental pick is going to be the straw that broke the camel's back. You don't think someone would have given a first rounder for Grossmann do you?? Or a second (which is what he was in the first place)?

    Bliss may be an idiot or he may be a genius or something in between. My guess is the last--as we do not have a championship team but were over 500 last season. Folks are using this to "prove" the incompetence of the FO--when in reality Bliss was making the same kind of cut most pro teams make every year. And, yes, sometimes you do get burned on that. But it's *standard*.
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  18. Kayak

    Kayak Member+

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    No, New England and Crew are the only teams to give up a player remotely like Cole... yes the only ones. I looked up Corey Hertzog for the heck of it, he got five games all in 2011, you know how many minutes he got? 35, 35 minutes, he was loaned out for 2012 he got zero games with Red Bull last year. Cole got only 12 minutes in 2011 but do you know how many he got last year? 500 they are not anywhere near one another in terms of value in the league or for the team they were on, not comparable in any way. So I stand by my statement that we are near the only team to put a player with the value Cole had in the wavier draft.

    Just to reiterate this point, we didn't even have to do it. In terms of roster rules and his contract he is the exact same player as Balchan, we didn't have to make a decision on either one.

    No as I've said I would have liked to have gotten something for him, or simply retained his rights. Wouldn't you agree that in our current situation with the rules of the league we have to be smarter than everyone else? Allocation money is given out in two ways, barring expansion, unless I missed something right? One if you are presumably really really good, your team qualified for Champions League. Two if you're really bad, your team failed to qualify for the Playoffs. If they haven't changed anything the you suck allocation money goes in reverse order of your place out of the playoffs. Since we didn't qualify for Champions League and we were one of the first out of the playoffs we get very little allocation money. Point? We have to be smarter than most teams with what we have because we have less leeway to screw up. We have to suck the value out of everything we have because we don't have as much, what I called grease earlier.
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  19. ZipSix

    ZipSix BigSoccer Supporter

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    Kayak, you've made your point elloquently six or seven times. Kgilbert is never going to admit the Crew front office made even the slightest hint of the smallest mistake. He believes every single one of their decisions can be rationalized. And he continues to believe it in the face of your reasoned argument and the mountains of evidence we've seen that the FO is prone to mistakes.

    In my opinion, it's time to spend your considered efforts trying to convince the convincable.
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  20. Kayak

    Kayak Member+

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    Apologies, I'll knock it off now.
  21. StatesideSoccer

    StatesideSoccer Member

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    Rational reasons for the actions behind the day-to-day business of running a sports club that don't play into the whole everything-about-the-way-this-team-is-run-is-bad-and-the-FO-should-feel-bad narrative that is being shoved down everyone's throats around here?

    Say. It. Ain't. So. Oh, king of the misanthropes.
  22. ZipSix

    ZipSix BigSoccer Supporter

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    King? We don't have a king. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week. But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting. By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs, but by a two-thirds majority in the case of foreign affairs.
  23. BG13

    BG13 Member+

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    King? Well I didn't vote for you. I thought we were an autonomous collective?
  24. kgilbert78

    kgilbert78 Member+

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    You all seem to have the idea that the entire FO is a bunch of flipping idjits and that anyone who takes a different viewpoint is an apologist. I call BULL. I am *very* clear that I think Bliss is probably in the middle. Sorry if that clashes with your meme. I don't think he's done anything that much different than most of the rest of the league.

    NY has Thierry. Like Hertzog was really going to play, beating out him. NYRB is not a place I'd want to go if a young American player. Some kids can make it there, sure. But they do not have much respect. You think Grossman would have gotten the same minutes at NYRB??

    Good lord, you'd think Grossman was the next Pele they way some of you talk about his "value". You guys are almost as bad as the tRR fan club. And I remember on these boards when the FO was ripped a new one because they would *not* waive Dante--who was a much more valuable player.

    BTW, Grossman *was* in his option year. Interestingly, this is what the rules say (emphasis mine):

    Looks like the team has to do *more* to keep rights than just declining the option. I suspect there's more going on here, otherwise there would not *be* a waiver draft at all--just the re-entry draft. If all you need to do is decline a contract or option, the player who isn't eligible for the re-entry draft would be stuck with you forever--and you wouldn't even *need* a post-season waiver draft.

    Another interesting point

    I think there's more going on here than meets the eye.
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  25. kgilbert78

    kgilbert78 Member+

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    I guess Zip "doesn't have sh*t all over him".
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